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Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

(1001 Posts)
foxie48 Tue 12-Mar-24 18:17:05

Much as the title says. I know some GNetters have been fierce supporters of Israel's right to defend themselves by their incursion into Gaza. As the months go by and more information becomes available with regard to the treatment, deaths etc of Palestinians, has this changed anyone's opinion? Today evidence of the treatment of doctors and patients in the Nasser Hospital has been verified. Does this change your opinion?

foxie48 Wed 10-Apr-24 21:13:14

Katie59

Foxie
I’m not telling you what to believe I’m just posing the question.
However you do seem to believe most of the pro Hamas
reports.

Hamas is Palestine

Really, please quote any of my posts that you consider are pro Hamas or show I believe Hamas propaganda, I wait with interest. I am certainly not "pro Hamas" I am however extremely critical of Netanyahu and his way of conducting war. Your comment "Hamas is Palestine" is unpleasant and inaccurate. Hamas is a terrorist group and does not represent the views or aspirations of Palestinians.

paddyann54 Wed 10-Apr-24 21:30:40

You're wasting your timeFoxie the fact that I have very old maps where the area now Israel as well as many other countries are ALL Palestine seems to be ignored.The Palestinian people have been treated appallingly for decades .I have asked what would people like Katie59 do if she was forcibly removed from land her family had farmed for centuries and had to watch as IDF razed it to the ground and destroyed the olive groves that were there means of existing All to aid what are essentially ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS of jewish extraction .No one ever answers .Its all bias in Israels favour on here ,despite the FACTS that Israel have been ignoring UN resolutions for decades AND getting away with actual murder.
This is not anti semitism its ANTI ISRAELI GOVERMENT POLICY ,but the blind or indoctrinated will not see or ackowledge that FACT .
Meantime we have an unelected foreign secretary whohas been made a Lord to allow him to work in this Tory disaster government telling us that this "great Britain" you are all so fond of will STILL provide weapons of war and funding to the Israeli war machine .
I didn't think I could be any more ashamed of being called British but THIS is beyond belief...these murders are NOT in MY name I stand with PALESTINE !!

Callistemon21 Wed 10-Apr-24 22:18:27

You're wasting your timeFoxie the fact that I have very old maps where the area now Israel as well as many other countries are ALL Palestine seems to be ignored

That is far too simplistic.

Yes, it was known as Palestine centuries ago but it was inhabited by various Semitic peoples. Abraham lived there, it was then known as Canaan (then Palestine).
Abraham is the ancestor of Jews and Arabs.

Jesus was Jewish and is known as Jesus of Palestine, at a time when it was under Roman occupation.

Arab, Jewish and Christian peoples all lived in Palestine.

A name on a geographical map does not tell you about the peoples who lived together in a region.

Callistemon21 Wed 10-Apr-24 22:19:58

It might be an idea to read up on history as well as looking at old maps, paddyann

Wyllow3 Wed 10-Apr-24 22:38:28

Callistemon21 that's true - at the time of the formation of the State of Israel, Arabs, Jews and Christians all lived in the region of Palestine.

The land was held as a "Protectorate" of the British Empire and it was largely a British and US post WW2 decision to allocate the block of land for the Israeli original boundaries.

Callistemon21 Wed 10-Apr-24 23:00:30

The history of the whole area and its peoples is very complicated and just looking at an ancient map of one era tells little of their stories, who lived where and when and why various sections of the population of that area were driven from their homes over centuries.

Callistemon21 Wed 10-Apr-24 23:01:59

I have asked what would people like Katie59 do if she was forcibly removed from land her family had farmed for centuries
Do you mean the Jewish people being driven out, paddyann?

Wyllow3 Wed 10-Apr-24 23:30:39

While the State of Israel was established on 15 May 1948 and admitted to the United Nations, a Palestinian State was not established.
The remaining territories of pre-1948 Palestine, the West Bank - including East Jerusalem- and Gaza Strip, were administered from 1948 till 1967 by Jordan and Egypt, respectively.

I think the lack of a formation of a Palestinian State at that point was a huge mistake because it did mean that the expansion and occupations of the Israeli government of the time were far more possible.

Candelle Thu 11-Apr-24 01:00:59

To growstuff: perhaps the reason why you have read this so often is that it is accurate.

To silverlining48: re disgusting propaganda: the world-wide press has had field gorging on propaganda, facts and figures.... produced by Hamas. IDF soldiers firing wildly, shooting woman, children and babies and on and on. Little mention of Hamas' atrocities. Please find below something I find interesting but doubtless those criticising Israel will not believe - it's a short read and demonstrates how one/lop-sided the news has been and how people now believe everything that journalists (often reporting from Jerusalem, not Gaza!...) tell them:

'Tragic World Central Kitchen Aid Workers Incident Exposes Rank Hypocrisy
The tragic killing of the seven aid workers in Gaza in an IDF drone strike has undoubtedly changed the direction of Israel’s war against Hamas. As the IDF admitted making “grave mistakes” in the strike…

As the IDF admitted making “grave mistakes” in the strike on a World Central Kitchen (WCK) vehicle convoy, pressure has piled on Israel to agree to an immediate ceasefire in the Strip, as well as other unpalatable terms Hamas put forward.

In the immediate aftermath, Israel dismissed two military officers and reprimanded several others.

The point that has been ignored by the vast majority of media pundits and politicians as they line up to criticize Israel is that holding up the WCK incident as proof there must be an immediate ceasefire is tantamount to saying that Hamas should stay in power.

Some of the harshest criticism leveled at Israel has come from its staunchest allies, including the United States and the United Kingdom, which have previously stopped short of calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire.

The UK’s foreign minister Lord David Cameron, for example, warned that Britain’s support for Israel was “not unconditional,” while describing the deaths of the WCK workers as “tragic and avoidable.”

Meanwhile, US President Joe Biden released a statement on April 2 — mere hours after the incident — which called for a “thorough investigation” that brings full “accountability.”

“Even more tragically, this is not a stand-alone incident. This conflict has been one of the worst in recent memory in terms of how many aid workers have been killed,” the statement added.

Such criticism was mirrored in the international press.

An editorial by The Observer argued that “only a ceasefire in Gaza can save [Israel] from its worst-ever crisis” and called for an “independent, international inquiry into last week’s outrageous killing of seven World Central Kitchen aid workers.”

“The IDF’s internal investigation and its limited admission of error do not begin to excuse or explain the army’s trigger-happy behaviour and ongoing, systemic problems with targeting,” it added.

Writing in The Guardian, Nesrine Malik described the World Central Kitchen incident as evidence that “Israel has gone rogue.”

The Wall Street Journal attempted to explore what it called the “deadly mistakes of Israel’s military in Gaza” in a piece that observed how the aid convoy strike had “crystallized a broad international backlash against Israel’s war in Gaza.”

However, the swift and unforgiving reaction to the WCK incident by both international leaders and the media has exposed another issue: a glaring hypocrisy where Israel is judged by a standard that is not applied to its allies.

Opinion writer Brendan O’Neill was among the handful of media pundits to call out this double standard in a piece for The Spectator:

David Cameron has got some front. The Foreign Secretary is haranguing Israel over its tragic unintentional killing of seven aid workers in Gaza, and yet he oversaw a war in which such ‘friendly fire’ horrors were commonplace. In fact, more than seven people were slain in accidental bombings under Cameron’s watch.

It was the Libya intervention of 2011. In that Nato-led excursion, in which Cameron, then prime minister, was an enthusiastic partner, numerous Libyans died as a result of misaimed bombs. Things got so bad that the West’s allies took to painting the roofs of their vehicles bright pink in an effort to avoid Nato’s missiles.”

Another op-ed in Newsweek by international human rights lawyer Arsen Ostrovsky and urban warfare expert John Spencer noted how one inevitable consequence of war is that “errors will occur” and that the US too had made similar errors during its conflicts:

The United States itself, during its withdrawal from Afghanistan in August 2021, mistakenly killed an aid worker and nine members of his family—including seven children—after targeting the wrong vehicle in a Kabul drone strike.

Similarly, NATO members have also, inadvertently and mistakenly, killed civilians, as in Libya in 2011, when 13 people, including ambulance workers, were killed by so-called ‘friendly fire.’

A piece published in the Daily Mail by columnist Richard Littlejohn called out the “nauseating” double standards that the WCK strike has exposed.

Recounting the events that followed the death of his friend, ITN correspondent Terry Lloyd—who was killed alongside several other journalists in a US strike on their clearly marked vehicle on the outskirts of Basra, Iraq, in March 2003—Littlejohn wrote:

A subsequent inquest ruled that Terry had been unlawfully killed by American troops and his lawyer said he had been the victim of a ‘very serious war crime‘. No one was ever charged.

The shock of his death was as traumatic for his family and friends as for those of the three brave British aid workers killed by Israeli forces in Gaza this week.

But no one at the time demanded that the American-led Coalition — which included 46,000 British military personnel — withdraw immediately from Iraq, allow Saddam Hussein to remain in power and abandon the hunt for what turned out to be non-existent weapons of mass destruction.”

Every innocent person killed in this war is a tragedy, whether they are international aid workers or Palestinian civilians. However, suggesting that Israel’s tragic accidents are somehow unique or more severe than others is hypocrisy of the highest order'.

Yes, disgusting propaganda, handed out by Hamas representatives and swallowed whole as easy stories for the press.

War is not easy, pretty or palatable and people die. Israel has almost been hung out to dry (or die) by lazy journalists and those who have a bigger picture in view. If Israel goes we, people in the UK will suffer, Israel is fighting for you and me, only you can't see it but you probably will in years to come.

Katie59 Thu 11-Apr-24 07:36:11

Callistemon21

^I have asked what would people like Katie59 do if she was forcibly removed from land her family had farmed for centuries^
Do you mean the Jewish people being driven out, paddyann?

Of course Israel should stop taking over Palestinian land that is the first thing that should stop, when the war is over, on the other side Palestinians must stop terrorist attacks on Israel.

Israel will win the Gaza war and Hamas will be defeated but then security for the whole of Israel must be improved, to prevent attacks from outside. Hamas are terrorists when they gained power they murdered all the opposition and have spent nearly 20 yrs indoctrinating the population to hate Israelis, they see every death as martyrdom so they don’t care how many die. That’s how they justify using civilians as human shields, how anyone can support this level of evil is beyond me.

.

Jillykins3 Thu 11-Apr-24 07:36:35

Candelle..No....l can't see it and never will. The Israeli government and the IDF are not killing innocent babies and children to save the rest of the world. We can all read and see what is happening. Listing atrocities done by other countries does not make what they are doing right or any less. Are the right wing illegal settlers doing what they are doing for the rest of humanity ? That's been going on for decades not just since Oct 7th.
You talk as though the lives of the Palestinian people mean nothing...just a by product of war. It doesn't matter how many times you are told that no one on here supports Hamas....still you make your accusations.

Katie59 Thu 11-Apr-24 07:52:08

Jillykins3

Candelle..No....l can't see it and never will. The Israeli government and the IDF are not killing innocent babies and children to save the rest of the world. We can all read and see what is happening. Listing atrocities done by other countries does not make what they are doing right or any less. Are the right wing illegal settlers doing what they are doing for the rest of humanity ? That's been going on for decades not just since Oct 7th.
You talk as though the lives of the Palestinian people mean nothing...just a by product of war. It doesn't matter how many times you are told that no one on here supports Hamas....still you make your accusations.

Hamas is Gaza, their grip on power makes in impossible for any moderate opinion to be heard.

Vintagewhine Thu 11-Apr-24 07:54:46

New definition of propaganda. Used to mean biased information used to support one side. Now, it's anything that doesn't support someone's view! Doesn't matter where it comes from, it's all lies.

Aveline Thu 11-Apr-24 07:55:01

Obviously, we'll never agree. It all might have been very different if Israel had respected Palestinian borders and not been so very heavy handed in their management.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 11-Apr-24 08:07:16

Three sons and four grandsons of one of the Hamas Political Leaders were killed in an IDF strike yesterday.

The Hamas Leader’s reaction

I an proud, they are martyrs to our cause

How do you negotiate and reason with a collective mindset like this?

Vintagewhine Thu 11-Apr-24 08:07:27

You said up thread that "Hamas is Palestine", now "Hamas is Gaza". Which is it? So your thinking is if moderate voices can't be heard, they don't need to be protected? It's ok to bomb and starve them! Children, women, aid workers, doctors, anyone in front of your gun or living in a block that might house a member of Hamas. It's all fine because Hamas is Palestine, Hamas is Gaza!

maddyone Thu 11-Apr-24 08:08:09

Candelle thank you for your informative post which points out the rank hypocrisy on this very thread, and of course elsewhere.
We know why Israel receives more condemnation than any other state during war. It’s because it’s a Jewish state. They are held to a higher standard than anywhere else in the world.

maddyone Thu 11-Apr-24 08:09:42

GrannyGravy your post at 08.07 👏👏👏

Vintagewhine Thu 11-Apr-24 08:15:16

What would you expect him to say? He's a terrorist who tells young men without much of a future that if they die fighting for Hamas they will have an endless supply of virgins in heaven. You're not being asked to negotiate with Hamas but those who are will have expected that response not been shocked by it.

Oreo Thu 11-Apr-24 08:16:17

maddyone

Candelle thank you for your informative post which points out the rank hypocrisy on this very thread, and of course elsewhere.
We know why Israel receives more condemnation than any other state during war. It’s because it’s a Jewish state. They are held to a higher standard than anywhere else in the world.

This exactly, and yeah ,hypocrisy at best. There will always be mistakes made in this kind of situation.

Oreo Thu 11-Apr-24 08:21:02

Vintagewhine

You said up thread that "Hamas is Palestine", now "Hamas is Gaza". Which is it? So your thinking is if moderate voices can't be heard, they don't need to be protected? It's ok to bomb and starve them! Children, women, aid workers, doctors, anyone in front of your gun or living in a block that might house a member of Hamas. It's all fine because Hamas is Palestine, Hamas is Gaza!

After the massacre on 7 th October, there was a poll taken in the West Bank, a very high proportion of Palestinians applauded what hamas did.
That’s the West Bank, not Gaza.Palestinians in Gaza would have greeted what hamas did with even more enthusiasm.
Supporting Gaza is supporting hamas.

Anniebach Thu 11-Apr-24 08:23:07

Candelle Thank you so much , I hope Phillippa reads it .
Yes Maddy it is because Israel is a Jewish state

Iam64 Thu 11-Apr-24 08:26:12

On a very simplistic note I’ve been reminded by vintagewhine of the promise of endless virgins. It sickened me - again

Oreo Thu 11-Apr-24 08:26:15

GrannyGravy13

Three sons and four grandsons of one of the Hamas Political Leaders were killed in an IDF strike yesterday.

The Hamas Leader’s reaction

I an proud, they are martyrs to our cause

How do you negotiate and reason with a collective mindset like this?

You can’t, they only respect force, which is what they’re getting.

Vintagewhine Thu 11-Apr-24 08:26:19

And those who didn't?

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