Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

It still begs the question, why did the IDF ignore the warnings and move troops to the West Bank just before 7/10? It really doesn't make sense. That is the question many Israelis will be asking themselves.

I think the answer can be found in Netanyahu.

Whitewavemark2

I think the answer can be found in Netanyahu.

I'm sure you're right but will we ever know?

Oreo

Tell that to hamas.
Of course it’s about winning this battle.The ideology war will always go on.We fight against it in the UK too and have our own
Muslim extremists and would be terrorist organisations.

I think there is historical cultural and religious ideology on both sides, and it is very hard to change.

Unless someone us directly involved in this long standing saga and only get their information from the media, or interested parties, then maybe it's not a good idea to pronounce on the right and wrongs of the sutuation.

There is alot of misinformation abd propaganda out there. I don't trust the injury & death figures coming from the Hamas run health ministry. We need independent verification.

It begs the question, are we so vocal and affectedabout other current wars and atrocities going on at the moment?

So what don’t you trust about the death figures LinFreed? Are they under reported, over reported?

It is obviously always difficult in war situations for accurate figures to be given, and it is clear from footage from the devastation wrought in Gaza that many bodies must be still under the rubble. However there are plenty of reliable sources checking as far as possible, figures Hamas Health Authority publish.

Try BBC Verify for information on this - or are they peddling propaganda too?

www.thejc.com/news/world/hamas-casualty-numbers-are-statistically-impossible-says-data-science-professor-rc0tzedc?utm_source=sharebutton&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=top&fbclid=IwAR0sYWzqIDd5MuzKFFr9j7sRcjCL7D8HpZrQwFMIRqp42EiVc9OQCjurg94

I personally think that Israel's military might and superb intelligence would have known if a cockroach was crossing the border, never mind Hamas, and I think they let it happen so that they could retaliate without looking as though they were the bad guys ... regardless the whole thing is dreadful.

MadeinYorkshire, sorry but that is nonsense. It is an absolutely disastrous failure of the Israeli military and intelligence. Inquiries are already underway and a lot of senior people are going to be resigning very soon (but not Netanyahu, unfortunately).
The idea that Israel let this massacre happen on purpose is just crazy, sorry.

It was early on a Saturday morning, also a religious holiday, which was obviously deliberately planned to catch Israel unprepared, but that does not exonerate the military from the massive failure.

from a reliable source .Did you know?
The Palestine conflict started way before October 7th last year.
Take 12-year-old Iman Darweesh Al Hams for instance.
She was deliberately shot in Rafah, Gaza on 5th October 2004!
An IDF commander used automatic fire to deliberately shoot her repeatedly. This is well documented (including in Wikipedia).
This is one of the common incidents that was actually investigated.
During the investigation he expressed NO regret over his actions and proudly declared that he would have done the same even if the girl was a 3-year-old!
After emptying his automatic weapon into the girl, for 'running away'. He claimed he was extinguishing a future "terrorist threat".
The girl was on her way to school, when the IDF stormed the area (as they often do). The frightened girl dropped her bag and ran.
Several soldiers fired on her as she ran, the commanding officer then stood over her and emptied his rifle magazine into her, despite pleas for him to stop.
He was charged with 'illegal use of his weapon' and 'conduct unbecoming an officer'. Not murder, not manslaughter, not even accidental death. Her life was insignificant and had little bearing on the charges. Even so, the Israeli military court found him 'not guilty' of all charges! - It only took 10 days to clear him of any guilt!
On 15 October 2004, it was reported that the officer was cleared of responsibility in the shooting. Subsequent to his acquittal, Captain R. was promoted to the rank of major.
In March 2006, he received 82,000 New Israel Shekels (roughly $17,000) to compensate him for the cost of his defense and time spent in jail.
Captain R. also filed a libel suit against Ilana Dayan (an Israeli investigative journalist) and the Telad production company (An Israel TV channel). The district court accepted the suit and awarded him 300,000 shekels in damages. He won damages on the absurd claim, that he 'didn't know he was shooting a schoolchild as the journalist implied'. FFS!
It would appear that it pays well in Israel, to murder Palestinian babies!
Human rights groups cite her death as one of several incidents which illustrate a "culture of impunity" in the IDF.
Palestinian witnesses reported that it was more than an hour before Israeli troops would allow medics to evacuate the body in an ambulance (another common practice when it is a Palestinian in need of emergency services - dead or alive!).
Hospital officials reported: "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs ... The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head."
So, she was obviously shot with 'shoot to kill' intention.
So, don't hogwash me with the 'Palestine started it' tropes!

MadeInYorkshire I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I have been wondering about that too.

So let’s get this clear. Hamas are fabricating death figures?
So despite the total devastation, flattened residential blocks, shops, markets, and hospitals in highly populated areas, most escaped, and the death toll is much less and grossly inflated by Hamas.
If “only” a few thousand innocent people were killed, it would be too many.

I suppose we will be informed next that the mass destruction depicted on our news are faked by Hamas.

I question the civilian death numbers in 4 months being higher
than the civilian death numbers in Ukraine from the beginning of the war

I looked at the stats that P60 sent a link to. It's very important to know who the source is and what their political affiliations are, just in case they have an agenda. I don't believe Abraham Wyner is impartial and he has links to other people in the US, who are not impartial either. I don't believe him any more than I believe Hamas but there is no doubt whatsoever that the civilian casualties, especially those of women and children, are much too high for any of us with a scrap of empathy should accept as justifiable.

I just don’t get it.

I think it’s officially accepted that the casualty numbers are accurate. Ukraine is a large country and it’s mostly the east being bombed, plus people had a chance to leave on trains and coaches as it began, unlike Palestine where there is nowhere to escape to. The people are penned in that small but over crowded space and there is no escape.

AGAA4

MadeInYorkshire I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I have been wondering about that too.

It’s not only crazy to think that, it’s actually wicked.

Farzanah

So what don’t you trust about the death figures LinFreed? Are they under reported, over reported?

It is obviously always difficult in war situations for accurate figures to be given, and it is clear from footage from the devastation wrought in Gaza that many bodies must be still under the rubble. However there are plenty of reliable sources checking as far as possible, figures Hamas Health Authority publish.

Try BBC Verify for information on this - or are they peddling propaganda too?

Of course they are over reported.In many cases hamas rush out the numbers killed the same day or the next.Impossible where places have been bombed! Why does anyone with a brain think otherwise.

paddyann54

from a reliable source .Did you know?
The Palestine conflict started way before October 7th last year.
Take 12-year-old Iman Darweesh Al Hams for instance.
She was deliberately shot in Rafah, Gaza on 5th October 2004!
An IDF commander used automatic fire to deliberately shoot her repeatedly. This is well documented (including in Wikipedia).
This is one of the common incidents that was actually investigated.
During the investigation he expressed NO regret over his actions and proudly declared that he would have done the same even if the girl was a 3-year-old!
After emptying his automatic weapon into the girl, for 'running away'. He claimed he was extinguishing a future "terrorist threat".
The girl was on her way to school, when the IDF stormed the area (as they often do). The frightened girl dropped her bag and ran.
Several soldiers fired on her as she ran, the commanding officer then stood over her and emptied his rifle magazine into her, despite pleas for him to stop.
He was charged with 'illegal use of his weapon' and 'conduct unbecoming an officer'. Not murder, not manslaughter, not even accidental death. Her life was insignificant and had little bearing on the charges. Even so, the Israeli military court found him 'not guilty' of all charges! - It only took 10 days to clear him of any guilt!
On 15 October 2004, it was reported that the officer was cleared of responsibility in the shooting. Subsequent to his acquittal, Captain R. was promoted to the rank of major.
In March 2006, he received 82,000 New Israel Shekels (roughly $17,000) to compensate him for the cost of his defense and time spent in jail.
Captain R. also filed a libel suit against Ilana Dayan (an Israeli investigative journalist) and the Telad production company (An Israel TV channel). The district court accepted the suit and awarded him 300,000 shekels in damages. He won damages on the absurd claim, that he 'didn't know he was shooting a schoolchild as the journalist implied'. FFS!
It would appear that it pays well in Israel, to murder Palestinian babies!
Human rights groups cite her death as one of several incidents which illustrate a "culture of impunity" in the IDF.
Palestinian witnesses reported that it was more than an hour before Israeli troops would allow medics to evacuate the body in an ambulance (another common practice when it is a Palestinian in need of emergency services - dead or alive!).
Hospital officials reported: "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs ... The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head."
So, she was obviously shot with 'shoot to kill' intention.
So, don't hogwash me with the 'Palestine started it' tropes!

Is it any wonder that a group like Hamas has been formed? Most of Gaza's citizens won't have been terrorists, but are being treated as such.

Yet I'm obviously crazy to think that Israel knew they were coming. They wanted this. Just look how the world joined forces in saying that they had a right to retaliate. I still feel it was the plan all along ...

Good God!

I don’t know the truth of it anymore than anyone else on here except Philippa, who lives there and has much more access to sources than anyone of us. I choose to believe what Philippa tells us, rather than newspaper articles written by people in different countries who are not there and have no access to what is happening in Gaza. There are no journalists allowed to go into Gaza. None. We were told that early on by the BBC. Therefore whatever information that comes directly from Gaza is coming via approval from Hamas. Any Palestinian journalist in Gaza who tells us any difference than what Hamas wants us to be told would be ruthlessly disposed of. So they report what they see, and it is very, very distressing but they cannot tell us how many people have been killed. No one knows. Obviously it is too many and the suffering is terrible on both sides. This week the BBC has reported from Israel. They interviewed a nineteen year old hostage who was released when others were released. He spoke of the lack of food and medicine when he was a hostage. He spoke of having both his legs operated on without anaesthesia (because Hamas shot him in both legs as he was trying to run away.) He spoke of staying in three apartments, being moved from one to the other. He spoke of the children in one apartment being encouraged to laugh at him. He told of being driven around Gaza on the day he was captured, lying in the back of a truck, with both his legs shot, and Gazans crowding around the truck and laughing. He said his twenty one year old sister is still a hostage. Other female hostages released have spoken of being raped whilst in captivity. This was reported on the BBC and we saw the boy being interviewed. Additionally it was reported yesterday that thousands of Israelis were marching and protesting in Israel and demanding the release of the hostages. The situation is not simple. I appreciate having the first hand, lived experience of a Gransnetter, I’m surprised that many of you do not.

We have Muslim terrorists here in the UK, so have other European countries, so have African countries, so have Middle East countries.
Are all these countries so awful that Muslim extremists have to rise up? They are dedicated to a Caliphate and will hate and kill all others who aren’t on the same page as themselves.
The naivety and worse are alive and well on these pages.

Well said Maddyone

There is an interview doing the rounds by the American mother and daughter who were taken as hostages on 7/10.

They say that when they were taken into Gaza, and then into one of the hospitals were they were held the Palestinians including nurses were clapping and applauding the adductors…