Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

I dont care if men are quiet or loud, they remain men whatever their level of noise.

It is interesting that the very behaviour that has always been criticised in women is the same behaviour that is now being criticised in transwomen. Keep your head down, behave yourself, don't be an activist. The only acceptable transwoman is a quiet one. Oh dear misogyny or what?

Rosie51

^Accusing a man on social media of assault could be regarded as a hate crime if sex were included in this legislation.^ how? For goodness' sake that would mean no woman could ever accuse a man of rape, because rape can only be done with a penis, something only male sex people have. You really are clutching at straws now.

Rape isn't the only form of assault women experience and some of what they do experience is difficult to legally deal with. As indeed is rape. Much of the treatment experienced by women in the legal system could be described as misogynistic and needs a law that can deal with this.

Did Professor Sir Gregor Smith have any say in this? What are his views?

If you try and enshrine a lie into law you are going to eventually run into trouble.
It is not kind to tell people they can change sex, it is deeply unkind.

You see this is what happens when I have a day off GN, I miss the opportunity to say I stand completely and utterly with JKR.

Yes to all that, Doodledog! There are others on Gransnet (and off it) who like *Luckygirl3 have a relative who "regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way." - and yet they are facing trouble BECAUSE OF the excessive activism of these transactivists and the aggressive lobbying of Government departments and multinational organisations by Stonewall in the course of their (very profitable) over-support of the trans "cause".

Luckygirl3

I am in a pickle over all this, as I have a GD who regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way.

JKR has every right to state her view and I do not disagree with her - biological sex is clearly immutable, and if the current Scottish legislation makes it illegal to say so then something has gone seriously awry. How do legislators get themselves into this sort of pickle? What lobbies make them feel they must fly in the face of logic?

If only all transgender people were like your GD, Luckygirl 🙂
Of course there will be prejudice, there always is against minorities, unfortunately, but ignorance is the cause of it. Your GD will need support and kindness.

Unfortunately, there are a few who are using the fact that transgender issues are very much in the news at the moment as a screen behind which they try to hide their criminal activities, their misogyny, or to bully their way into winning at sport.
Sad and damaging to other transgender people as they are always the ones in the news.

Passing laws that put women at a disadvantage is not going to make prejudice disappear, it will only worsen it.

Luckygirl3

I am in a pickle over all this, as I have a GD who regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way.

JKR has every right to state her view and I do not disagree with her - biological sex is clearly immutable, and if the current Scottish legislation makes it illegal to say so then something has gone seriously awry. How do legislators get themselves into this sort of pickle? What lobbies make them feel they must fly in the face of logic?

You've hit the nail on the head, really.

Many women (myself included) have no issue whatever with people like your GD, and had Stonewall not overreached would be continuing to be as inclusive as possible.

It is not transpeople themselves that we object to, but the denial of women as a sex that has used transpeople to push a misogynist agenda. If it is illegal to call Isla Bryson 'he', but not illegal to threaten JKR, the law is an ass. When mothers are 'birthgivers' and women are 'people with cervixes', and when teenage girls have men leering at them when they use changing rooms, when men lurk in public toilets and can't be challenged, when rape (with a penis) is classified as having been committed by women (and people on here use that travesty to inform us that women can commit rape), and there is nowhere that women can go to be with other women and organise ourselves (eg the WI, which used to be a female organisation but now has men making policy decisions) - when those things (and more) happen and it is illegal to complain as doing so might incite hate - that is when people like your GD lose support.

It's not her fault, and it's not fair, but the hatred against women held by so many TRAs and their 'allies' breeds resentment, and people have been expressing our unhappiness with all of that (both the hatred from the TRAs and the resentment of genuine transpeople) for years now. We've been ridiculed, maligned and misrepresented countless times, but the chickens we warned about have come home to roost.

Luckygirl13

Caleo

A strong woman owns the traditionally masculine virtue of protector of the vulnerable. It's irrelevant what sex they are. However it matters that biological women are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally male.

And it matters that biological men are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally female.

If anyone is going to misbehave in changing rooms it's misbehaviour regardless of which sex they are.

All of that is true, but I'm missing what it has to do with the Scottish legislation and JKR's resistance to it.

I am in a pickle over all this, as I have a GD who regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way.

JKR has every right to state her view and I do not disagree with her - biological sex is clearly immutable, and if the current Scottish legislation makes it illegal to say so then something has gone seriously awry. How do legislators get themselves into this sort of pickle? What lobbies make them feel they must fly in the face of logic?

A strong woman owns the traditionally masculine virtue of protector of the vulnerable. It's irrelevant what sex they are. However it matters that biological women are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally male.

And it matters that biological men are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally female.

If anyone is going to misbehave in changing rooms it's misbehaviour regardless of which sex they are.

Rosie51

It could also have protected women, females, but chose not to. In fact there were those actively fighting including the protection of women. Why would anyone actively oppose the protection of the female sex..............

Well if you read posts on here, you can see that actively fighting to exclude the protection of women unless they’re transwomen is seen as the ideal. It’s a way of giving men the power they want.

Your sex is biological : you are taught to be masculine or feminine gender usually from birth or shortly after.

You can change your gender preference any time you like if you live in a free country. But you cannot change your sex which is defined by your sexual organs and your chromosomes

A very very few individuals are both sexes at the one time. But anyone of whichever sex with a bit of imagination can choose to behave in ways that are not traditional, just as long as they don't break the law . There used to be laws that made it illegal for some people to wear some sorts of apparel and there still are such laws in some less enlightened countries.

Oops

I am in full support of JKR. At last someone high profile who talks sense. If only there were more prepared to speak out honestly.

Just saw this on X if it wasn’t true it would be funny.

I read this morning that more than 3,000 complaints have been made to Police Scotland under the SNP’s new hate crime laws since they came into force this week, it has been reported following warnings that the force would be overwhelmed.
Calum Steele, the former general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said he understood that around 3,800 cases had been lodged over the previous 24 hours (DT) .

Well that’s their holiday rotas cancelled isn’t it?
What a totally ill thought-out and unworkable scheme.

Deciding what "incites hatred" is surely going to be a bit of a legal minefield? Not least for the police who have to decide initially if there is a case to be answered - and it seems much of the force hasn't yet received any of the basic training in this area.

Glorianny says "Misogyny legislation is hard to introduce and to enforce because it is entrenched in society and isn't easily eliminated or even recognised"

It is also entrenched in society that biological sex is immutable, but it has not been "difficult" to introduce legislation that denies it - so why should legislation against misogyny be any more problematic?

... unless the problem lies in admitting that misogyny is sex-based.

Good for JKR. Get rid of Yousaf, what’s his agender?

Yesterday on Twitter someone suggested switching Scotland off then on again to see if it might work better!

If only more people had her courage, then this whole nonsense about gender would collapse.
What is also very concerning is the attitude of the SNP. The petty little laws they have introduced don't bode well for the future of Scotland.

Rosie51

^You really are wriggling.^ I've seen maggots on a fishing hook wriggle less 🤣🤣 Objecting to parts or omissions of a law is truly not denigrating all of it! Am I to assume that omitting any protection for females who don't have an additional protected characteristic is purely coincidental and not a deliberate act? It really baffles me that anything that pertains purely to females is complex beyond belief, yet if it's a case of males who identify' as female that's simplicity personified.

Agreed Rosie, and it really baffles me that Some Women will defend anything and everything that pertains to transwomen being given priority over women.

You really are wriggling. I've seen maggots on a fishing hook wriggle less 🤣🤣 Objecting to parts or omissions of a law is truly not denigrating all of it! Am I to assume that omitting any protection for females who don't have an additional protected characteristic is purely coincidental and not a deliberate act? It really baffles me that anything that pertains purely to females is complex beyond belief, yet if it's a case of males who identify' as female that's simplicity personified.