Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Caleo

It's morally wrong that transgender people suffer from inadequate provision of comfortable safe toilets and changing rooms, and intransigent elderly.

It’s morally wrong that anyone suffers from inadequate provision of comfortable safe toilets and changing rooms.
But you seem to be saying that females should give up their existing provision of comfortable safe toilets and changing rooms.
Can you explain how that can that be right?

Your sweeping intransigent elderly shows how out of touch or deliberately blinkered you are being.

Complaints about males in female changing rooms, both in shops and in sports changing rooms,
in female saunas,
in female hospital wards,
come from a wide variety of age groups, including teens, twenties, thirties and older.
Even primary children, once they begin to develop in year 4, 5, and 6 prefer to change separately and many primary schools have tracksuits that children wear to come to school on PE days.
Are you saying they are all wrong?

I don’t disagree with your concern for trans, but I do disagree with removing equal concern for females to satisfy the trans needs.

Iam64

How government ministers sleep at night is a mystery. They’ve decimated camhs with children waiting years to be seen. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the Cass report led to properly funded servuces

If they do manage to access them the service is inadequate anyway.

Caleo

Callistemon, before there are adequate facilities in public places, there has to be political will to build the architectural infrastructure. Conservatives won't do it as they seek sort term profits .

We've got a Labour Council. We have public loos.
It's just that they're locked much of the time presumably because they are used for other purposes.

How government ministers sleep at night is a mystery. They’ve decimated camhs with children waiting years to be seen. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the Cass report led to properly funded servuces

Doodledog

Me too. I feel mixed emotions today. It’s good to have it acknowledged that we have been on the right side of history, and that this will be looked at more sensibly going forward. I still feel for the victims though, and worry for the high number of children who’ll be confused and concerned just now. I hope they get some reassurance soon.

I still feel for the victims though, and worry for the high number of children who’ll be confused and concerned just now.

Quite.

It's not about us - it's about the children.

My God, do we ever need some serious re-organisation of mental health services. No child should have to wait for months and months to access them.

Me too. I feel mixed emotions today. It’s good to have it acknowledged that we have been on the right side of history, and that this will be looked at more sensibly going forward. I still feel for the victims though, and worry for the high number of children who’ll be confused and concerned just now. I hope they get some reassurance soon.

It is morally wrong that women asking for single sex provision as provided in the equality act are described as intransigent.
Thank God for intransigent women, they have just saved thousands of children from a medical scandal.
I am proud to be intransigent.

short term profits.

Callistemon, before there are adequate facilities in public places, there has to be political will to build the architectural infrastructure. Conservatives won't do it as they seek sort term profits .

PS Great well-planned public toilets would be for all sexes and genders like hotels are for all sexes and all genders, as there would be no reason for their not being so. These comfortable retreats could supply a shower for those in need and a clean towel. They could be renamed ' retreats' or 'shower rooms ' instead of the smelly name 'public toilets'.

They could of course charge an entry fee and extra for the clean towel etc. The disadvantage is that people with stomas or poor people could not afford such expensive comfort. The solution here is to provide sufficient benefits for poor people and for people with limiting conditions such as stomas.

This nation under redistributive socialism would be a nicer place to live in.

Caleo

It is within human ingenuity to plan public toilets which are permanently staffed by attendants who do more than clean them.
Toilets which are actually 'comfort able welcoming centres where people can relax and clean themselves and their children if need be.

These facilities cost money that local authorities don't have so they must be financed by taxation, possibly with financial input from those local businesses that profit from good town centre facilities. Great public toilets would be a great innovation to rejuvenate town centres.

Sometimes we're lucky to find them open!!

It is within human ingenuity to plan public toilets which are permanently staffed by attendants who do more than clean them.
Toilets which are actually 'comfort able welcoming centres where people can relax and clean themselves and their children if need be.

These facilities cost money that local authorities don't have so they must be financed by taxation, possibly with financial input from those local businesses that profit from good town centre facilities. Great public toilets would be a great innovation to rejuvenate town centres.

It's morally wrong that transgender people suffer from inadequate provision of comfortable safe toilets and changing rooms, and intransigent elderly.

I suspect that that attitude is born of the belief that anyone expressing concern about the whole trans agenda is 'phobic' and that we are all afraid of transpeople.

This is linking to the other thread, and how words matter. A phobia is an irrational fear, which can often be disabling. Being concerned about the ramifications of a world where being a woman is optional and has no protection in law is not an irrational fear, and speaking out about the idiocy of criminalising saying that males are male is not phobic.

'I went in a shop and saw a transgender person and did not feel threatened or uncomfortable'

And?

I went in a pub and saw a transgender person and didn't feel threatened or uncomfortable either.

That is missing the point by a country mile.

fancythat

I notice that people in the world sometimes see what is in front of them. Right then.
They dont and never see a bigger picture.

They believe everything they are told. By the media and others.

As just 1 example.
They think the world or country is what they have seen.
If say a hospital a&e is not that bad as regards waiting times, they think every hospital is like that.
They have not heard and dont believe in postcode lottery about anything.
Because they "have seen" for themselves.

LOL!

Yes, it's the "it-didn't-happen-to-me-so-it-can't-be-true" syndrome.

And of course, the corollary to this is that, if it did happen to you - it must have been your fault...

Well observed Mollygo.

The point that Syracute and those of the same mind miss - or don't engage with anyway - is that we do not believe that men can change themselves into women. We understand gender identity; we know that the trans community suffer discrimination at the least and abuse at the worst; we know that stereotypes exist, sometimes to the point that it becomes untenable for a person to conform to them; we know that some men feel more comfortable emotionally and physically identifying as women, we know that the majority of transwomen are not a threat... we know all these things but it doesn't alter the fact that a biological male cannot become a biological female. And that is the material point and the one which is ignored in favour of pointing out to us what we already know.

Ignoring that fact makes these discussions with those who disagree with out stance - pointless Because transwomen, regardless of how they endeavour to portray themselves as women and what lengths they go to to achieve it to satisfy their gender identity are still men and therefore the status quo that exists regarding men and women, still exists. Women have safe spaces because there are sufficient numbers of men who abuse or intimidate women, so by the law of averages some transwomen will be a threat. I don't know why those like Syracute don't understand this.

Of course, it's about more than that, but Syracute has brought it down to that level by reducing the argument to one of whether or not you are safe in a commercial outlet with another transgender person. And so we go through the whole rigmarole again instead of discussing what really matters which is the gradual erosion of women as a sex and what that will mean for us in the future.

That's the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude that is one of the reasons we are we are today.

It doesn't worry me so it doesn't matter if it worries anyone else.

I notice that people in the world sometimes see what is in front of them. Right then.
They dont and never see a bigger picture.

They believe everything they are told. By the media and others.

As just 1 example.
They think the world or country is what they have seen.
If say a hospital a&e is not that bad as regards waiting times, they think every hospital is like that.
They have not heard and dont believe in postcode lottery about anything.
Because they "have seen" for themselves.

fancythat

Some people see the world at face value.

What does that mean?

Some people see the world at face value.

Syracute
As Rosie51, Doodledog, Dickens and others have said, you’re missing the point.

However your statement . . .
I have seen a transgender person in Victoria Secrets and did not feel threatened or uncomfortable.
is very surprising!

*Glorianny always says you can’t tell if someone is a TIM or not, and there you go, instantly identifying a shopper as such.
Do share what gave him away?*

Even though you find it hard to grasp, no one on here sees all TIM as a threat.
The problems and anxieties for females caused by those TIM who are a threat, are very real as is the concern with TIM clearly male, in female spaces.

Your clearly identifiable TIM in Victoria’s Secret is not a threat, any more than my DH going there to make gift purchases would be, unless either of them wanted to try items on in communal changing rooms.
However, my DH going into female changing rooms would cause the same anxiety as the TIM you so easily identified.

Not because my DH or even your easily identified TIM is a threat, but because they’re somewhere they shouldn’t be and they would be disrespecting and disregarding the feelings of female customers.
If you think that’s OK. Then that’s up to you.
As I asked before, Why do you protect TIM rather than females?
You didn’t answer before. Was it because you can’t?

Syracute

Simple : I don’t feel threatened . I don’t see nor have your viewpoint to what are exaggerated problems . I have seen a transgender person in Victoria Secrets and did not feel threatened or uncomfortable . She was just shopping like I was .

... Oh, well... that's OK then.

You saw a transgender person in Victoria's Secrets and didn't feel threatened...

I have a transgender friend - and I don't feel threatened either.

But that is not the point. At all. Which I don't think you have grasped.

Well said Rosie. I share your frustration with the ’Mememe’ tone and the total inability to see beyond her own experience that infuses Syracute’s post.

Syracute

Simple : I don’t feel threatened . I don’t see nor have your viewpoint to what are exaggerated problems . I have seen a transgender person in Victoria Secrets and did not feel threatened or uncomfortable . She was just shopping like I was .

Whatever I feel should order convention and the law!!
I feel comfortable with various situations therefore if you feel uncomfortable it's a problem with you. I believe in fairytales so if you don't it's a problem with you. I have certain beliefs, so if you don't share those beliefs it's a problem with you. Men can become women by uttering the sacred phrase. Whatever I believe or am comfortable with is the standard and if you are at any way in variance then the problem is with you. Go Syracute and those that align this way! (cheerleader waving of pom poms) That teensy minority have taken hold of the world. Yay! Let's celebrate! Yay! (exit stage right waving tattered crepe paper pom-poms)