Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

As we're discussing sex and gender on here when is a women's team not a women's team? There are 5 males out of 11 on this women's team, will a sixth tip the balance?
reduxx.info/exclusive-women-drop-out-of-australian-football-division-after-five-trans-identified-males-dominate-womens-league-leave-female-players-injured/

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

But age, disability, religion and sexual orientation were not covered, nor was transgender.
Misogyny is a problem but there is some legislation which covers it. It isn't being applied.
Glorianny why do you think sex was not only left out of the original draft but the amendment to include it was voted against? Why would you specifically not want to protect people from hate because of their sex? It seems an odd deliberate act and continues to give men freedom to indulge their hatred of women, unless those women have an additional protected characteristic.

Well for one thing sex includes men. So if a woman was to accuse a man of assault or use social media to deal with actions they felt were abusive then they could be accused of stirring up hatred against him on the grounds of sex. I believe the crime you are seeking legislation for is misogyny. I've linked to a paper about this. There is already some legislation which isn't being applied properly. One requirement is that any legislation should be effective.

I don't mind the male sex having protection against hatred generated solely because of their sex, why would I? Men are humans too.
I believe the crime you are seeking legislation for is misogyny. I've linked to a paper about this. There is already some legislation which isn't being applied properly. Then all the more reason to include misogyny in this bill. They've included categories that are already covered by other legislation haven't they? Why is it only hate against females they are determined to exclude? Could it possibly be that they'd have to acknowledge that transwomen are of the male sex? I guarantee that if they keep their promise to bring forward a bill against misogyny transwomen, male sex people, will be included. Females can't have anything just for us.

So you would virtually close down the "Me too" movement because it denigrates men?
It's far more important to look at why the legislation in place already isn't working and ensure that proper effective legislation is introduced than just to stick the word "sex" into this legislation

???? I really don't follow your thought process. The "Me too" which seems to have died a death anyway (misogyny yet again?) does not denigrate all men, only those who have abused women.
If you believe in equality and fairness for all why are you so happy for misogyny legislation to be left ignored on the back burner? Why is misogyny legislation the hardest of all to formulate according to you? There are categories included in this bill already covered by other legislation so why were they included again in this?

Accusing a man on social media of assault could be regarded as a hate crime if sex were included in this legislation.
I'm not happy for misogyny to be left on a back burner. I simply don't think including the word "sex" would help with eliminating it.
Misogyny legislation is hard to introduce and to enforce because it is entrenched in society and isn't easily eliminated or even recognised.
Which categories were already covered?

www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill

Rosie51

www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill

The Bill creates a new crime of stirring up hatred against any of the protected groups covered by the Bill.

Accusing a man on social media of assault could be regarded as a hate crime if sex were included in this legislation. how? For goodness' sake that would mean no woman could ever accuse a man of rape, because rape can only be done with a penis, something only male sex people have. You really are clutching at straws now.

Glorianny

Rosie51

www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill

The Bill creates a new crime of stirring up hatred against any of the protected groups covered by the Bill.

This Bill aims to do three things. It updates these existing laws and pulls most of these laws into one Bill. It also adds to the groups currently specifically protected by hate crime laws

I suppose this bit didn't suit the males and transwomen first argument. Still says forget the females suffering misogyny, we don't care one smidgeon.

Doodledog
There is more to this than pronouns. Or are you seriously saying that calling a male person ‘he’ is likely to incite hatred?
Sorry you've lost me. I don't think I've said any such thing.
But I don't see how denigrating legislation which protects the disabled, the old, religious belief and sexual orientation helps anyone.
No legislation is perfect, But asking for legal action on misogyny is a different matter to asking for sex to be included in this legislation.
You’re lost?? Really? Ok. The act is designed to prevent incitement to hatred. You brought pronouns into it. You said: Referring to someone by the chosen pronoun is simply using words it doesn't require you to believe anything. But choosing to denigrate a piece of legislation which protects some minorities is ignoring their needs, simply because of your personal views.
Do you believe that calling a male-born person ‘he’ is likely to incite hatred? Also, disagreeing with part of a law is not the same thing as ‘denigrating’ all of it. You really are wriggling.

You really are wriggling. I've seen maggots on a fishing hook wriggle less 🤣🤣 Objecting to parts or omissions of a law is truly not denigrating all of it! Am I to assume that omitting any protection for females who don't have an additional protected characteristic is purely coincidental and not a deliberate act? It really baffles me that anything that pertains purely to females is complex beyond belief, yet if it's a case of males who identify' as female that's simplicity personified.

Rosie51

^You really are wriggling.^ I've seen maggots on a fishing hook wriggle less 🤣🤣 Objecting to parts or omissions of a law is truly not denigrating all of it! Am I to assume that omitting any protection for females who don't have an additional protected characteristic is purely coincidental and not a deliberate act? It really baffles me that anything that pertains purely to females is complex beyond belief, yet if it's a case of males who identify' as female that's simplicity personified.

Agreed Rosie, and it really baffles me that Some Women will defend anything and everything that pertains to transwomen being given priority over women.

If only more people had her courage, then this whole nonsense about gender would collapse.
What is also very concerning is the attitude of the SNP. The petty little laws they have introduced don't bode well for the future of Scotland.

Yesterday on Twitter someone suggested switching Scotland off then on again to see if it might work better!

Good for JKR. Get rid of Yousaf, what’s his agender?

Deciding what "incites hatred" is surely going to be a bit of a legal minefield? Not least for the police who have to decide initially if there is a case to be answered - and it seems much of the force hasn't yet received any of the basic training in this area.

Glorianny says "Misogyny legislation is hard to introduce and to enforce because it is entrenched in society and isn't easily eliminated or even recognised"

It is also entrenched in society that biological sex is immutable, but it has not been "difficult" to introduce legislation that denies it - so why should legislation against misogyny be any more problematic?

... unless the problem lies in admitting that misogyny is sex-based.

I read this morning that more than 3,000 complaints have been made to Police Scotland under the SNP’s new hate crime laws since they came into force this week, it has been reported following warnings that the force would be overwhelmed.
Calum Steele, the former general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said he understood that around 3,800 cases had been lodged over the previous 24 hours (DT) .

Well that’s their holiday rotas cancelled isn’t it?
What a totally ill thought-out and unworkable scheme.

Just saw this on X if it wasn’t true it would be funny.

I am in full support of JKR. At last someone high profile who talks sense. If only there were more prepared to speak out honestly.

Oops

Your sex is biological : you are taught to be masculine or feminine gender usually from birth or shortly after.

You can change your gender preference any time you like if you live in a free country. But you cannot change your sex which is defined by your sexual organs and your chromosomes

A very very few individuals are both sexes at the one time. But anyone of whichever sex with a bit of imagination can choose to behave in ways that are not traditional, just as long as they don't break the law . There used to be laws that made it illegal for some people to wear some sorts of apparel and there still are such laws in some less enlightened countries.

Rosie51

It could also have protected women, females, but chose not to. In fact there were those actively fighting including the protection of women. Why would anyone actively oppose the protection of the female sex..............

Well if you read posts on here, you can see that actively fighting to exclude the protection of women unless they’re transwomen is seen as the ideal. It’s a way of giving men the power they want.

A strong woman owns the traditionally masculine virtue of protector of the vulnerable. It's irrelevant what sex they are. However it matters that biological women are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally male.

And it matters that biological men are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally female.

If anyone is going to misbehave in changing rooms it's misbehaviour regardless of which sex they are.

I am in a pickle over all this, as I have a GD who regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way.

JKR has every right to state her view and I do not disagree with her - biological sex is clearly immutable, and if the current Scottish legislation makes it illegal to say so then something has gone seriously awry. How do legislators get themselves into this sort of pickle? What lobbies make them feel they must fly in the face of logic?

Caleo

A strong woman owns the traditionally masculine virtue of protector of the vulnerable. It's irrelevant what sex they are. However it matters that biological women are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally male.

And it matters that biological men are not excluded from virtues that are traditionally female.

If anyone is going to misbehave in changing rooms it's misbehaviour regardless of which sex they are.

All of that is true, but I'm missing what it has to do with the Scottish legislation and JKR's resistance to it.

Luckygirl13

Luckygirl3

I am in a pickle over all this, as I have a GD who regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way.

JKR has every right to state her view and I do not disagree with her - biological sex is clearly immutable, and if the current Scottish legislation makes it illegal to say so then something has gone seriously awry. How do legislators get themselves into this sort of pickle? What lobbies make them feel they must fly in the face of logic?

You've hit the nail on the head, really.

Many women (myself included) have no issue whatever with people like your GD, and had Stonewall not overreached would be continuing to be as inclusive as possible.

It is not transpeople themselves that we object to, but the denial of women as a sex that has used transpeople to push a misogynist agenda. If it is illegal to call Isla Bryson 'he', but not illegal to threaten JKR, the law is an ass. When mothers are 'birthgivers' and women are 'people with cervixes', and when teenage girls have men leering at them when they use changing rooms, when men lurk in public toilets and can't be challenged, when rape (with a penis) is classified as having been committed by women (and people on here use that travesty to inform us that women can commit rape), and there is nowhere that women can go to be with other women and organise ourselves (eg the WI, which used to be a female organisation but now has men making policy decisions) - when those things (and more) happen and it is illegal to complain as doing so might incite hate - that is when people like your GD lose support.

It's not her fault, and it's not fair, but the hatred against women held by so many TRAs and their 'allies' breeds resentment, and people have been expressing our unhappiness with all of that (both the hatred from the TRAs and the resentment of genuine transpeople) for years now. We've been ridiculed, maligned and misrepresented countless times, but the chickens we warned about have come home to roost.

Luckygirl3

I am in a pickle over all this, as I have a GD who regards herself/himself as transgender - he/she is someone I love dearly and would wish them to be treated with respect and kindness. But they pose no threat to anyone in any way.

JKR has every right to state her view and I do not disagree with her - biological sex is clearly immutable, and if the current Scottish legislation makes it illegal to say so then something has gone seriously awry. How do legislators get themselves into this sort of pickle? What lobbies make them feel they must fly in the face of logic?

If only all transgender people were like your GD, Luckygirl 🙂
Of course there will be prejudice, there always is against minorities, unfortunately, but ignorance is the cause of it. Your GD will need support and kindness.

Unfortunately, there are a few who are using the fact that transgender issues are very much in the news at the moment as a screen behind which they try to hide their criminal activities, their misogyny, or to bully their way into winning at sport.
Sad and damaging to other transgender people as they are always the ones in the news.

Passing laws that put women at a disadvantage is not going to make prejudice disappear, it will only worsen it.