Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Because the thread is long and I am not going back over the thread to pick out what are especially aggressive comments . The sad fact is the posters here are using the same old tired arguments against transgender people : toilets , changing rooms and sports . These are amplified by tabloid newspapers and spills over here in the comments .

Syracute - you dismiss genuine concerns as ‘the usual debate of transgender athletes which are miniscule’
That comment alone makes me conclude you’ve no idea how significant this is for girls and women. That suggests you’re only concerned about the well being of a minority of male burn athletes

RosiesMaw

^Where do you get your statistics from ? Many trans have had operations and no longer have male looking bodies . Breast implants or top surgery is very common . I am definitely not blind^

Can you explain the medical procedures they undergo to reduce shoulder width, height, upper body strength and other physical characteristics which develop in teen age boys and young men as they go through puberty ?
There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females.

I was actually referring to the posters that refer to the look of a transgender person not the usual debate of transgender athletes which are minuscule.

MadeInYorkshire

I support JKR absolutely ...

I haven't managed to read all 8 pages (have only today had a notification about the post?) but where I live a teacher has been sacked over all this.

The young person a girl biologically, announced that henceforth she would be known as a boy, ok fair enough ... then has got offended because the teacher threw 'him' out of a competition for girls only, and he has lost his job. I just can't see that is right?

It's barmy. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. I hope the teacher is in a union. Mind you, some of those have been captured, too.

I have no idea, JaneJudge. I believe that it used to be the case that people could hide behind a change of name, but I am not a legal expert and these things change all the time, as light gets shone on the more dubious aspects.

I support JKR absolutely ...

I haven't managed to read all 8 pages (have only today had a notification about the post?) but where I live a teacher has been sacked over all this.

The young person a girl biologically, announced that henceforth she would be known as a boy, ok fair enough ... then has got offended because the teacher threw 'him' out of a competition for girls only, and he has lost his job. I just can't see that is right?

I would like someone to answer my question about vetting/dbs and change of gender/name as I think it’s important

I treat transgender people the same as I treat everyone else. I don’t need to be gas lamped (sorry I’ve been watching Mandy)

Where do you get your statistics from ? Many trans have had operations and no longer have male looking bodies . Breast implants or top surgery is very common . I am definitely not blind

Can you explain the medical procedures they undergo to reduce shoulder width, height, upper body strength and other physical characteristics which develop in teen age boys and young men as they go through puberty ?
There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females.

Oh is someone popping on to tell us how hateful and smug we are whilst claiming to be kind.

It's a very low percentage, overall.
With bottom surgery almost half the rate of top.

Syracute

Smileless2012

Once again Syracute you are making accusations that you're not prepared to validate. ugliness towards transgender people here, certain statements are hateful, misconstrued ideas on trans rights, taking examples from the tabloids to accentuate unfounded fears and stirring ugliness into what can become a dangerous hate.

There's not one example on this thread of any of the aforementioned.

I see it very differently and find this thread upsetting . If only people here would take the time to educate themselves by listening to transgender people tell their side of the story as I do then think you might have some real insight . I doubt the smug posters here would do that as it’s clear in their minds that their way of thinking is the only way . Which is shameful !

Well, as you are refusing to engage with anyone about what they have actually written, it is impossible to debate. Is that your intention?

I see you are using the 'some people' way of posting, which makes digs without mentioning names, so that you can say you weren't being personal, and if anyone responds directly to you you can claim to be being picked on. A personal comment (such as 'the smug posters' and calling us 'shameful') is still personal whether you have the decency to address it to a named person or not, and most of us on here know passive aggression like that when we see it. As for 'educate yourselves', that is the ultimate in 'I can't put up an argument, but will pretend that I know much more than you, and tell you to FOFO. When you agree with my point of view, I'll agree that you are 'educated' enough to engage with'. We've seen that on here before, too.

It's absolutely fine to disagree, but please - stop the pass agg way of posting, and at least argue with what people are saying instead of calling us names. You'll get a lot more respect that way.

These surgeries may be 'common' in transgender circles but are very rare in the total non transgender population.

Doodledog

It is tedious to have to keep repeating it, but yet again:

*If male-bodied people are allowed in women's spaces then predatory males can access them, as there is no way to tell the difference.

* The reason that women's spaces exist at all is because even though most men are not predatory, some are, and if male bodied people are allowed in women's spaces then predatory males can access them, as there is no way to tell the difference.

* Transwomen are biologically male. The majority have male sex organs, and all of them have male bodies. Therefore, although the majority of transwomen are not predatory, some are, and if male-bodied people are allowed in women's spaces then predatory males can access them as there is no way to tell the difference.

Most men are not concerned by this, as they realise that whilst they are not predatory themselves, some men are, and as there is no way to tell the difference it makes sense to separate men and women in situations where women are vulnerable in the presence of predatory men.

It is not considered discriminatory or prejudiced, or hateful or exclusionary to ban men from the limited number of women's spaces that exist, and nor is it considered to be tarring all men with the same brush. If you can't see that, you are blind, or choosing to misinterpret what people are saying.

Where do you get your statistics from ? Many trans have had operations and no longer have male looking bodies . Breast implants or top surgery is very common . I am definitely not blind but I am not going to use unfounded fears to create fear where there is no need .

That was to JaneJudge

Might be as well to find out, do you think?

Smileless2012

Once again Syracute you are making accusations that you're not prepared to validate. ugliness towards transgender people here, certain statements are hateful, misconstrued ideas on trans rights, taking examples from the tabloids to accentuate unfounded fears and stirring ugliness into what can become a dangerous hate.

There's not one example on this thread of any of the aforementioned.

I see it very differently and find this thread upsetting . If only people here would take the time to educate themselves by listening to transgender people tell their side of the story as I do then think you might have some real insight . I doubt the smug posters here would do that as it’s clear in their minds that their way of thinking is the only way . Which is shameful !

I’ve had an enhanced check for SOVA and they used about 7 different variations of my names as I’m assuming they had different people pop up….not sure how it works in all honesty. That’s why I asked 🙈

JaneJudge

I'm presuming someone working in care or education who have access to vulnerable people would have to have an enhanced DBS check anyway, if someone had transitioned either male to female or vice versa, presumably they still have to give their previous names? like I would have to as I've been married five times or whatever? That wont change will it? as at one point they were going down a direction that allowed people to have a completely different identity which was quite frankly petrifying

I'm not sure about that.
I'm lagging behind since I've not been able to work.

The person I spoke about used fairly neutral first names as a woman, and then as a man.

Are "dead names" recognised by law, when needing to be accessed?

Syracute
^ taking examples from the tabloids to accentuate unfounded fears^
Can you evidence these examples from the tabloids?
Can you explain unfounded fears?

For example, Should females in prison not be afraid that a TIM would be allowed in their quarters, when they’ve read in the tabloids that he’s in there for rape and assault on females?

It is tedious to have to keep repeating it, but yet again:

*If male-bodied people are allowed in women's spaces then predatory males can access them, as there is no way to tell the difference.

* The reason that women's spaces exist at all is because even though most men are not predatory, some are, and if male bodied people are allowed in women's spaces then predatory males can access them, as there is no way to tell the difference.

* Transwomen are biologically male. The majority have male sex organs, and all of them have male bodies. Therefore, although the majority of transwomen are not predatory, some are, and if male-bodied people are allowed in women's spaces then predatory males can access them as there is no way to tell the difference.

Most men are not concerned by this, as they realise that whilst they are not predatory themselves, some men are, and as there is no way to tell the difference it makes sense to separate men and women in situations where women are vulnerable in the presence of predatory men.

It is not considered discriminatory or prejudiced, or hateful or exclusionary to ban men from the limited number of women's spaces that exist, and nor is it considered to be tarring all men with the same brush. If you can't see that, you are blind, or choosing to misinterpret what people are saying.

Once again Syracute you are making accusations that you're not prepared to validate. ugliness towards transgender people here, certain statements are hateful, misconstrued ideas on trans rights, taking examples from the tabloids to accentuate unfounded fears and stirring ugliness into what can become a dangerous hate.

There's not one example on this thread of any of the aforementioned.

As far as I know all previous names still have to be given JaneJudge so presumably if someone has transitioned that would have included changing their name, and documentation pertaining to that would have to be presented.

Dickens : I disagree with you . This thread is very much vilifying transgender people . It is why it is so upsetting to read and realize that there is so much ugliness towards transgender people here . I am not about to get in a point to point discussion on why certain statements are hateful : if you can’t see that you are blind . A big thanks to VS for standing up to the people here who have misconstrued ideas on trans rights and who take examples from the tabloids to accentuate unfounded fears . Some people do adopt a transgender identity to take advantage but that doesn’t tar the majority . Except here it does ! It’s shameful what was written in this thread but it’s also sad that people like to come and stir that ugliness into what can become a dangerous hate .

I'm presuming someone working in care or education who have access to vulnerable people would have to have an enhanced DBS check anyway, if someone had transitioned either male to female or vice versa, presumably they still have to give their previous names? like I would have to as I've been married five times or whatever? That wont change will it? as at one point they were going down a direction that allowed people to have a completely different identity which was quite frankly petrifying

If women's rights to safe spaces were protected under the Equality Act, Sunak wouldn't have made these proposals to prevent men self identifying as women from accessing them.