Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Aveline

When I was working with autistic adults I met a lot of women who had been called tomboys in their youth. It was very common. On discussing it with them there was something about not wanting change. A major dislike for people with autism and something that inevitably happens to bodies in adolescence. Some reacted by trying to 'starve' their bodies out of change resulting in anorexia. Perhaps trying to take some sort of control over change. I don't know. I didn't meet any who wanted to change gender. I did meet males who wanted to be female (in a remarkably masculine sort of way).
Not a straightforward area and I'm glad that Dr Cass has highlighted autism etc.

That's interesting Aveline.

You are absolutely correct - it is most definitely not a straightforward area

And that is the crux of the whole matter. That, and the assumption that a child with limited life experience, determining themselves and their relationship with society via their feelings, can make major decisions which might affect the whole course of their lives in ways they cannot possibly comprehend.

eddiecat, there are so many similar stories. The attacks on Dr Cass have started. Let’s hope the majority views on ensuring the transactivists ideology don’t continue to dominate

When I was working with autistic adults I met a lot of women who had been called tomboys in their youth. It was very common. On discussing it with them there was something about not wanting change. A major dislike for people with autism and something that inevitably happens to bodies in adolescence. Some reacted by trying to 'starve' their bodies out of change resulting in anorexia. Perhaps trying to take some sort of control over change. I don't know. I didn't meet any who wanted to change gender. I did meet males who wanted to be female (in a remarkably masculine sort of way).
Not a straightforward area and I'm glad that Dr Cass has highlighted autism etc.

I used to work for a famous actress. She told me she absolutely hated puberty and even became anorexic for a while in an effort to evade it. She said that if she'd been given the chance then to "change sex" she definitely would have taken it. However just a few years later she had grown to love being female and knew that would have been a terrible mistake.

Yes, didn’t the numbers rise from something like 15 to thousands? It’s incredibly difficult to work out causes for social phenomena like this, as there are so many variables, but I’d like to think that sociologists will be all over it too. It needs a multi-disciplinary approach.

One major concern high lighted by Cass is the huge increase in girls wanting to be boys. Cass links this to pornography. This is something the gender critical posters on gnet have often suggested

When I was a teenager, Twiggy was the one that girls aspired to be like.

But, as 99.5% of the female population just didn’t have her “build”, we all had to change our wishes and expectations!

I’ve always thought we should aim to be the best we can - but be realistic. Some things will never be possible.

People can identify as to whatever they like, but it doesn’t make it a fact.

And children need to understand that. No one gets everything they want in life - most of life is a compromise.

That was exactly my point, M0nica. Too many people seem to have been taught from birth that they can, though.

Doodledog I would add that we cannot always have something just because we want it. My DGD a very good and talented ballet dance has had to accept that no matter how good her dancing her physique is entirely unsuitable for being a ballet dancer. At leat she has accepted it and not turned to starving herself in the irrational belief that that if she lost weight suddenly her broad shoulders, and wide back would shrink also.

All of us have to learn to know our limitations

I quite like the tweet which says 'in 10 years time everyone will be claiming they were gender critical' Fortunately in this technological age those claims will be shown to be untrue, although I see James O Brien is giving it his best shot. What cowards they are.

Galaxy

They could try Canada and America they have embraced it fully.

Of course they have! $$$$$$$$

I’m absolutely with your concerns about the stress, pressure on our children to excel. They’re being robbed of childhood

I think that the s very true, sadly. MH needs a lot more by way of resources.

I think what we (as a society, as parents, grandparents, teachers etc) could usefully do is stop telling children that they can be or do whatever they like, that all they have to do is try, or not give up and they can have the world.

It’s probably been a reaction against the ‘who do you think you are?’ the yes, but be realistic (get a trade/professional qualification before you try for your dream, the ‘respect your elders’ ways that went before, and I know that I tried never to stifle my children, but to encourage them. But in some ways it has gone too far, and young adults can feel they have failed and let themselves and their parents down if they aren’t at the top of every tree. I think that this affects mental health and could also explain why people think they can change sex, in the same way that they think they can get a First class degree, or a graduate job, just by wanting it. Nobody has ever told them that wanting isn’t needing, and needing isn’t necessarily deserving.

Sorry if that’s come out muddled- without going into detail I am multitasking.

Glorianny

I just hope the report comes out with some positive advice for parents and for gender questioning children. Being told what not to do really isn't the most helpful thing is it? And the lack of services will throw many families into hugely difficult crises. In fact I can't think of any other condition where only negative advice is available, or considered acceptable. If anyone can I'd be delighted to know. Meantime my concern is how those children and families will cope, because they are not going to go away.

When you reach the conclusion that something - anything - you are doing might be causing more harm than it is doing good - you might not be in a position to have all the answers at that particular point.

So if you believe that what you are doing is harmful - do you just carry on until you have sorted out all the complexities?

The fault line is not with Cass, it is with the paucity of the mental health services within the NHS.

Galaxy

They could try Canada and America they have embraced it fully.

In the US, it really does depend on what state. They all have their own rules/laws:

www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1167

Delia22

AGAA4

Thanks Urmstongran. It's not a good idea for anyone to change gender until they are fully mature adults.

It's now accepted that the human brain does not fully.mature until age 24/25 years. So it really.makes sense to delay life changing decisions such as gender change till then at least.

How many of those who believe that children are capable of making life-changing decisions at an early age would give their children sole responsibility for making huge and important changes that impacted the whole family.

Would they give them the power over major family life decisions?

I really doubt it because they would assume the children didn't have the experience nor intellectual capacity to make such decisions.

So why believe they have the capacity to make some dramatic personal choices which might affect their future life?

They could try Canada and America they have embraced it fully.

Galaxy

Yes of course people will double down in relation to this, what else can they do. Admitting what has happened is going to be very difficult.
As for people going abroad many of the European countries have been backing away from puberty blockers for some time, in Italy they are starting criminal proceedings against clinics. In my view it will be the medical scandal of our age.

No, I doubt that parents will be taking children abroad as most countries seem to be ahead of the UK in reaching these sensible conclusions that this is too important a decision for a child to make.

Yes of course people will double down in relation to this, what else can they do. Admitting what has happened is going to be very difficult.
As for people going abroad many of the European countries have been backing away from puberty blockers for some time, in Italy they are starting criminal proceedings against clinics. In my view it will be the medical scandal of our age.

AGAA4

Thanks Urmstongran. It's not a good idea for anyone to change gender until they are fully mature adults.

It's now accepted that the human brain does not fully.mature until age 24/25 years. So it really.makes sense to delay life changing decisions such as gender change till then at least.

That is tragic, Molly. It must be so difficult for parents. We all want to do the best we can for our children, but it's not often that we are expected to navigate something that is new, under-researched and so contentious. I'm very grateful that we didn't have this to contend with.

I expect a lot of parents to double down in the face of the report, and I can't really blame them - you would blame yourself if you made a wrong decision, or a decision that had a difficult result.

Smileless2012

What a heartbreaking tragedy Mollygo.

It was and doubly so because her family, who had coped well when he was younger, and talked about being a girl, held her responsible for his death.

Mamie

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Mamie

Apologies for adding to the thread derailment but:
As a SENCO in a state school I was supporting children with dyslexia in the late seventies and in our LA we were working with a specialist Educational Psychologis, the Dyslexia Association and peripatetic teachers. I then became an adviser and worked with a Paediatrician with specialist knowledge of dyspraxia in the late 8Os, as the condition was increasingly recognised in our schools. Having had the opportunity to work on a wide regional basis I know from experience, that while provision in LAs varied, there was also a great deal of knowledge and support available.
To return to the topic, I am pleased to see that such a compassionate, informed and pragmatic report is now available to those working in this difficult area.

Thankyou Mamie for your post, yes, the thread was becoming derailed but I think accusations aimed at posters needed to be refuted.
I'm not going to state where I worked, but it was back in the 1960s and early 1970s where I was a trainee and the staff included Educational Psychologists, PSWs, and a teacher who specialised in dyslexia and the problems it could cause.

Just a comment that SENCOs didn't come into being until the 1993 Education act. But heaven forbid I should ask for some accuracy.

That was when it became law that every school should have one Glorianny. We had the title long before that, after we stopped being the "Remedial Teacher". I have the certificates.
We also used the term "specific learning difficulties" which included dyslexia. The Dyslexia Association was extremely helpful, did you not access their resources?
As anyone who has worked with children with learning disabilities, physical disabilities and emotional or behavioural difficulties will know, it is not all about the name, it is what you do that counts.

I'm always pleased to hear of people who worked to support children Mamie and of course there were places which did so for some dyslexic children. The Dyslexia Association is an organisation which I found difficult to use, much of the advice offered at the time being money related, something I couldn't afford. And certainly when I started teaching it was not mentioned in schools
I think the name sometimes counts.

Sorry, I posted that without proof reading - shouldn't have repeated the bit about 'no mention of changing gender.' Oh for an edit button!

Grandmabatty

In over 25 years of teaching, I only encountered one pupil who was determined to change gender and did, to the extent that they changed name too. The school was very supportive of them. Before I retired six years ago, there were a number who were gender fluid or believed they were the wrong gender.Nearly every one had some mental health issues and were possibly gay but confused. Often some appeared to jump on the bandwagon as an attempt to understand their confusion. Once on the gender change rollercoaster, it's very difficult for teenagers to jump off. Anything which encourages a pause is welcome

Absolutely agree with you. I taught for 20 years and also knew just one student who changed gender. The whole staff were told and encouraged to ask questions as to how best to deal with them. That young person was very mature for their age (16) and was also open to any queries we had about how to support them. There were also feminine presenting boys and masculine presenting girls, but, to my knowledge, no-one raised the issue of changing gender with them. They were just as they were and any issues (which were mostly along the lines of using "gay" as an insult) were swiftly dealt with by staff and students were educated to accept each other as they were, with, to my knowledge, no mention of changing gender - they were just not conforming to stereotypes and that was seen as absolutely fine. Given that it was a Catholic School, the whole situation (with the transgender student) was dealt with very carefully to ensure that the student felt at ease and so did the other staff and students.