Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Glorianny

I have been wondering (and it really is a question so if there is evidence please post it) why if puberty blockers are prescribed for a 7 year old, who is going through puberty too early, and might be upset about it, is it wrong to prescribe them for a 13 year old who is going through puberty and is upset about it?

Children are rarely given puberty blockers even for precocious puberty but those that are, as I have said many times before, are kept on them for the shortest possible time, and carefully monitored throughout. They will not still be on them at 10 let alone 13, but will be going through a normal age appropriate puberty at the same time as their peers. Children suffering from body dysphoria are put on puberty blockers until they're of an age to commence cross sex hormones, bypassing the normal process of puberty. Puberty involves not only sexual development but brain development.

Mollygo

Another, not unexpected evasion there Glorianny.

Regardless of whether your house is a private building or not would you considerate it an act of vandalism if it was sprayed because somebody didn’t like something you said?

But it wasn't a house. And it wasn't sprayed because of something being said. It was sprayed because the University removed the posters that had been put up.

Mollygo I found this page might be helpful
www.nhs.uk/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/
It seems there are reasons to treat rare cases medically for under age 8.

Are 7 year olds still being prescribed puberty blockers in the UK?

I know the Pentagon recommends it, but then, the US government thinks owning a gun at an early age is right.

Presume the prescription for 7 yr old was due to a medical condition that had to be treated. Not sure what you are referring to re 13 yr olds.

Glorianny

I have been wondering (and it really is a question so if there is evidence please post it) why if puberty blockers are prescribed for a 7 year old, who is going through puberty too early, and might be upset about it, is it wrong to prescribe them for a 13 year old who is going through puberty and is upset about it?

All thirteen-year-old are either going through puberty or will do in a very short time. It is a big change in their lives, and most find one aspect or another of it upsetting. Should every thirteen-year-old except those who are overjoyed about it be precribed medication to delay the inevitable?

What percentage of students didn't want to listen to KS? If it wasn't 100% why were those who would have heard her speak denied their right to do so?

IMO bringing the Klu Klux Klan and black students into the discussion is quite frankly ridiculous, as any reasonable person would be against such a hate filled organisation, regardless of the colour of their skin.

KS isn't saying that the trans community should be totally subservient, be given no rights and not be allowed to travel with, eat with and be educated with the rest of the population who aren't trans is she?

A tenant paying rent to their landlord is funding and providing money to maintain the property they live in, but that doesn't give them the right to vandalise that property with spray paint.

If they did so, they'd probably find themselves at the very least evicted and possibly prosecuted.

Another, not unexpected evasion there Glorianny.

Regardless of whether your house is a private building or not would you considerate it an act of vandalism if it was sprayed because somebody didn’t like something you said?

I have been wondering (and it really is a question so if there is evidence please post it) why if puberty blockers are prescribed for a 7 year old, who is going through puberty too early, and might be upset about it, is it wrong to prescribe them for a 13 year old who is going through puberty and is upset about it?

Doodledog

Nobody denies the existence of transpeople- just that they can change sex. Which they can’t.

And please stop telling me what I think. I do not regret saying anything on this thread, and I am not ‘resorting’ to anything. You are twisting my words and picking out one part of my post instead of dealing with all of it. You implied that I think it is ‘awful’ that students ’have a voice’, which totally misrepresents what I actually said, which was far more specific and based on decades of experience, which I don’t think you share? I am perfectly happy for anyone to have a voice, including biological realists, but I don’t think that providing an education is possible if students refuse to even listen to people with whose views they disagree. That is denying them a voice and offering an unbalanced view to young adults who are supposed to be learning and making up their minds. How can children (or adults for that matter) get proper help in clinical environments if expert opinion is silenced and only the views sanctioned by zealots are allowed to be taught? Should KS’s books be burned in your opinion?

Sorry the perception of Kathleen Stock by transpeople is that she denies their existence.
It is also the view expressed by 100 academics when she was disinvited from speaking
We believe that trans students should not be made to debate their existence. We also refute that this is a free speech issue - disinviting someone is not preventing them from speaking
I realise Stock does not recognise her views as doing this but others do.

No one''s books should be burned. Why would I think anything like that. Stock is free to write or speak as she likes wherever people want to listen to her. She's not free to do so where students find her views discriminatory and threatening.

In the interests of free speech would you expect black students to welcome a member of the Klu Klux Klan? Or would you expect them to demonstrate and refuse to listen?

Mollygo

I’m fascinated by the idea that Glorianny doesn’t see an act of vandalism as wrong.

Glorianny, if your house was sprayed any colour at all because people didn’t like something you said, would you commend them?

My house is a private dwelling. A university is a building funded and maintained by the fees students pay. A better parallel might be would I mind them spraying their own house, which I wouldn't.
Honestly it's student protest. I realise I'm probably older than you but I do remember 1968 and the student protests then. It's something students should do.

I’m fascinated by the idea that Glorianny doesn’t see an act of vandalism as wrong.

Glorianny, if your house was sprayed any colour at all because people didn’t like something you said, would you commend them?

I had the same experience the first time I opened the link, Rosie.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

I haven't presented the protest as violent, I'm merely describing the photo in Pink News that you linked to. Those students are dressed exactly as I've described spraying a pink substance on university property. If you don't want the photo to be used as an example why on earth did you link to it? Somewhat bizarre !

Ah well some of us read the text and realised that only happened after the university removed posters. There was also a photo of a line of students standing with placards quite peacefully. Did you miss that one?

When I clicked the link all I got was that one photo. I tried clicking on various parts but never got to any text? I did think it an odd thing to link to.......
I still did not present the protest as violent, care to apologise for that inaccurate accusation?

Nobody denies the existence of transpeople- just that they can change sex. Which they can’t.

And please stop telling me what I think. I do not regret saying anything on this thread, and I am not ‘resorting’ to anything. You are twisting my words and picking out one part of my post instead of dealing with all of it. You implied that I think it is ‘awful’ that students ’have a voice’, which totally misrepresents what I actually said, which was far more specific and based on decades of experience, which I don’t think you share? I am perfectly happy for anyone to have a voice, including biological realists, but I don’t think that providing an education is possible if students refuse to even listen to people with whose views they disagree. That is denying them a voice and offering an unbalanced view to young adults who are supposed to be learning and making up their minds. How can children (or adults for that matter) get proper help in clinical environments if expert opinion is silenced and only the views sanctioned by zealots are allowed to be taught? Should KS’s books be burned in your opinion?

Doodledog

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

Quite.

Doodledog

I didn't say I was worried. And I don't need you to tell me what I should consider.

I said that the NSS is used to evaluate course, and some of the comments are about things like coffee, or lectures starting at 9.00am. I assume that this is something else about which you have no experience but a vocal opinion?

What do you understand by the term 'academic freedom', and is it something that you value? I asked that ages ago, but you have chosen not to answer but to twist my words in one of your choreographed dances.

I love the way when you say something you either regret or don't realise the implications of you then resort to "you are twisting my words".

As usual accompanied by the "You aren't qualified or experienced enough to have an opinion."

Academic freedom is always subject to the limitation of not causing distress or discrimination to any group of people.
Which was why I asked about a Holocaust denier who might cause distress to Jewish students,
Trans students regard Kathleen Stock as.denying their existence and are distressed by her.

Doodledog

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

I have never said they were fully reversible I have said that for some children they offer a breathing space and a way of adjusting and feeling more comfortable with their body. But there is some evidence that there are children who have stopped taking them and not transitioned

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

I haven't presented the protest as violent, I'm merely describing the photo in Pink News that you linked to. Those students are dressed exactly as I've described spraying a pink substance on university property. If you don't want the photo to be used as an example why on earth did you link to it? Somewhat bizarre !

Ah well some of us read the text and realised that only happened after the university removed posters. There was also a photo of a line of students standing with placards quite peacefully. Did you miss that one?

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

Iam64

Sighting Japan as some kind of centre of excellence on student feedback is rather surprising
Japan has high levels of anxiety and other mh problems amongst its student population. Pressure to succeed and lack of independence
. Psychologists suspect lack of strong attachments are key.

I don't think I cited it as a centre of excellence. Just as somewhere where students have evaluated their lecturers for a long time.

Sighting Japan as some kind of centre of excellence on student feedback is rather surprising
Japan has high levels of anxiety and other mh problems amongst its student population. Pressure to succeed and lack of independence
. Psychologists suspect lack of strong attachments are key.

I didn't say I was worried. And I don't need you to tell me what I should consider.

I said that the NSS is used to evaluate course, and some of the comments are about things like coffee, or lectures starting at 9.00am. I assume that this is something else about which you have no experience but a vocal opinion?

What do you understand by the term 'academic freedom', and is it something that you value? I asked that ages ago, but you have chosen not to answer but to twist my words in one of your choreographed dances.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

I haven't presented the protest as violent, I'm merely describing the photo in Pink News that you linked to. Those students are dressed exactly as I've described spraying a pink substance on university property. If you don't want the photo to be used as an example why on earth did you link to it? Somewhat bizarre !

Rosie51

I watched a program recently where the main action was taking place in a science lab in a Scottish university. One of the professors was evaluated by her students.