Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Galaxy

I suspect as a society we need to look at children and mental health, again we are looking at a rise in numbers that seems of concern, is this linked to social media, the content that children are being exposed to, or something else entirely, whilst it is vital to look at the support available it is also important to try and unpick what is going on.

Thats a good question as to the "why". I can only quote what my niece, who until a year ago was headteacher of a large comprehensive when I asked her.
She said often young people knew more about gender identity issues than the teachers, and pointed to social media, and they tried to do their best by individual children, but guidance and referral was sorely lacking.

Yes. Its dire. I'm sure locally most referrals if gender issues are part of the issue have gone down that route already. New money is needed - it cant be diverted from Adult services, dementia services, older adult services, they are also on their knees.

And of course in schools and university counselling services who are struggling to support children.

Wyllow3

The 6 years waiting list I described is the local over 18's gender services. Lowest waiting lists for over 18's services is 2 years in NI.

I don't know what the waiting list for the new GID's services in London and Manchester will be.

Waiting lists for children's Mental Health services are dire, if the young person with gender issues is in need of those services too.

Sorry the 6 years is for adult services.
The children's gender service is not making appointments yet. They advise the parents of children showing distress to contact their local CAMHs service. So this will have a knock on effect for all children using that service.
www.ardengemcsu.nhs.uk/services/clinical-support/national-referral-support-service-for-the-nhs-gender-incongruence-service-for-children-and-young-people/

Galaxy

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

If students don't like someone now they are paying for their courses they can say so loudly. The concept of not listening to them is irreconcilable with the actuality. They can withdraw and take the money with them.
She chose a trans-friendly university then spouted anti-trans theory. She knew what she was doing.
She has benefitted from their opposition, but to stay relevant she needs to challenge more- hence her views on this report

I am talking about general mental health concerns in children there rather than specifically gender related.

I suspect as a society we need to look at children and mental health, again we are looking at a rise in numbers that seems of concern, is this linked to social media, the content that children are being exposed to, or something else entirely, whilst it is vital to look at the support available it is also important to try and unpick what is going on.

Glorianny
Can you imagine anyone would be celebrating a report which criticised the treatment of any other condition in children, but which left those children with waiting lists of over 6 years to simply be diagnosed, not even treated?

Can you imagine any other possible condition in children that would have been treated by amputation, sterilisation or irrevocable changes by drugs without first considering other means, and without waiting till the children were old enough to understand these outcomes for their future lives?

The leap in and lop it off or dive in and drug them all brigade has a lot to answer for.

I agree that there isn't enough support for any mental health problems not just trans.

But for those on other mental health waiting lists, the answer isn’t to chop bits off a child’s body, or sterilise them, or offer irrevocable drug treatment while they wait, to see if that would work, especially when they’re too young to understand what these treatments really mean for their future.

It might have helped to look at the explosion of numbers in girls when it was flagged and what that meant, if many of those girls should have been referred to autism services (2 year waiting list in my area and we arent the worst be a long shot) or to support services around childhood trauma, then there would have been a clearer picture.

The 6 years waiting list I described is the local over 18's gender services. Lowest waiting lists for over 18's services is 2 years in NI.

I don't know what the waiting list for the new GID's services in London and Manchester will be.

Waiting lists for children's Mental Health services are dire, if the young person with gender issues is in need of those services too.

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

Wyllow3

Luckygirl3

The first priority is to protect children. They must not become footballs in an ideological conflict. Individuals and organisations must be free to speak out about their concerns.

Agreed. That's been the value for me of concentrating in this discussion on the Cass report and implementing it with enough resources because in the gender area as a whole there is so much controversy I become concerned individuals needing care and support get lost.

Oh I think the individuals and children needing care and support are well and truly lost. Can you imagine anyone would be celebrating a report which criticised the treatment of any other condition in children, but which left those children with waiting lists of over 6 years to simply be diagnosed, not even treated?

Galaxy

I hear from her all the time Glorianny, she has a weekly podcast, I cant imagine what she and others must be feeling after the way they have been treated.
I see Ruth Hunt is trying to throw everyone under the bus and pretend it was nothing to do with
her, I wondered how they would react when it all started to collapse.

How has she been treated? Took a job at a trans friendly university then found they were doing gender studies (what a surprise!) so changed her area of expertise, simply to argue with them, and was then surprised that the students rebelled and didn't like her. She 's got an OBE, very lucrative book deals, a position at a university she doesn't even need to live near and somehow she's been mistreated?

It could have begun years earlier if they had listened to the whistleblowers in particular the safeguarding lead.

Luckygirl3

The first priority is to protect children. They must not become footballs in an ideological conflict. Individuals and organisations must be free to speak out about their concerns.

Agreed. That's been the value for me of concentrating in this discussion on the Cass report and implementing it with enough resources because in the gender area as a whole there is so much controversy I become concerned individuals needing care and support get lost.

I hear from her all the time Glorianny, she has a weekly podcast, I cant imagine what she and others must be feeling after the way they have been treated.
I see Ruth Hunt is trying to throw everyone under the bus and pretend it was nothing to do with
her, I wondered how they would react when it all started to collapse.

The first priority is to protect children. They must not become footballs in an ideological conflict. Individuals and organisations must be free to speak out about their concerns.

M0nica

Kathleen Stocks has written a thoughtful but provocative article on Unherd comparing the doctrinaire attitudes that prevailed at the Tavistock Clinic nd similar places to a religious cult unherd.com/2024/04/the-liberal-lessons-of-the-cass-report/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

Ah Kathleen Stock trying in vain to become relevant again and possibly publicise the University of Austin of which she is a founder member. Described by some as "anti-woke" it intends to offer "forbidden courses" although as yet it has no graduates or under graduates. Has she got another book out? That's usually when we hear from her.

Wyllow3 I think it somewhat OTT, but what she describes of circles of people who all agree with each other and only talk to each other and turn on, and professionally undermine anyone who disagrees with them, is very much more common than people like to admit and the medical, and ancillary professions seem more prone to it than most.

This week I read an article by a man, whose father had had him undergo several years of Kleinian psycho analysis form the aage of around 8-10. There seemed to be no specific reason for this, but his father moved in psycho analytical social circles, and obviously thought it would be good for his son.

As a child, this man had not enjoyed the experience had been bored, and uncooperataive in the sessions and finally rebelled and refused to attend them. As an adult he discovered that his analyst had written up and published an anonymised version of his case. It had been the source of many more learned articles from other people and it was much discussed in the relevant circles.

When he read these reports he was outraged by the interpretations about his psyche and how his mind worked etc etc, which he said were a travesty of the truth. He was just an ordinary child made to undergo a process he did not understand and was bored and recalitrant in sessions and disliked the therapist. Perfectly ordinary decisions he made to sit on one chair rather another, simply because it was more comfortble, were psychoanalysed and considered replete with deep meaning, not just by the therapsit but others as well.

The problem was, this man reported that the particular form of psychoanalysis he was subject too was under attack - as much gender changing treatment was, so those following this therapy had drawn the wagons up in a circle and refused to talk to anyone who didn't agree with them and replled all criticism. This is essentially what has happened with gender therapy and is happening in one or two other areas of medecine.

I think that it is perfectly understandable for the heads of people like KS to be spinning. On the one hand, they must be delighted to be vindicated, and know that all the sacrifices they have made in pursuit of the truth have borne fruit. On the other they must be absolutely furious to know that they had to make those sacrifices, and suffer vilification and threats.

Surely expecting them to go straight to calm professional mode (particularly when their careers have been derailed so spectacularly) is asking too much too soon?

What do you think, Monica?

I find it unnecessarily provocative, I'm not sure what the value of this is, what she hopes to achieve with it, because Cass has a moderate, team based holistic approach and what Stock's main complaint is, of medical drug intervention, has been almost completely taken off the table, and staff cannot work in that way again in the NHS.

And Cass's report is being actioned and staff have to work within the boundaries we have discussed at length in this discussion so far.

I would have liked her rather to use her caring for the patients to push hard and get the resources that Cass needs for the holistic team based clinics - that do not yet have.

Kathleen Stocks has written a thoughtful but provocative article on Unherd comparing the doctrinaire attitudes that prevailed at the Tavistock Clinic nd similar places to a religious cult unherd.com/2024/04/the-liberal-lessons-of-the-cass-report/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

I think they are intervening with the private providers as well with regard to under 18s in this country
There are criminal proceedings in Italy against a clinic with regard to puberty blockers. I dont know enough about Italy's health system to know the nature of the clinic .

Age 18 for drugs although it does say

"In a nutshell, it recommends the service significantly limit the prescribing of medications — colloquially known as puberty blockers — for people aged under 18 and for patient care to be multi-disciplinary and centred around mental health support rather than medical interventions"

So there is an apparent loophole (significantly limit, not forbid) but I imagine if the Cass report were to be implemented ie enough counselling and help and evaluation were there there might be exceptions - I don't know.

Galaxy

For children that is.

so does that mean anyone under 18? or do they mean people under 16?

thanks for explaining all btw

Well I'm not sure about the lack of research. Here's a link to a review of research into transgender people's well being after transition. Most of the studies show an increase in well being.
Is there a lack of research or has the research simply been ignored.
Two of the results are important as far as this report goes. And sadly neither of them will be implemented for trans individuals in the UK
Factors that are predictive of success in the treatment of gender dysphoria include adequate preparation and mental health support prior to treatment, proper follow-up care from knowledgeable providers, consistent family and social support, and high-quality surgical outcomes (when surgery is involved).

6. Transgender individuals, particularly those who cannot access treatment for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress. While gender transition can mitigate these challenges, the health and well-being of transgender people can be harmed by stigmatizing and discriminatory treatment

The waiting lists mean there will be completely inadequate care for transpeople.
whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

Sorry thats unfair, David Bell and the safeguarding lead at the tavistock Sonia Appleby did raise concerns, and were treated poorly to say the least.