Five Bulgarian nationals plead guilty to falsely claiming Universal Credit over five years and storing wads of cash in ‘fraud factories’.

I agree with you Dickens. Until recently, my partner worked part-time for the University of Oslo. He received all sorts of paperwork from the Norwegian tax authorities, none of which did he understand to begin with. He didn't have a clue how the Norwegian tax system worked either. Apparently, he used OCR software to scan the documents and ran them through Google translate. By the time I knew him, he'd taught himself a fair amount of Norwegian and could understand the tax documents without resorting to translation apps.

I'm still not sure what language skills have to do with the fraud. They knew what they needed to know.

growstuff

Incidentally, I am well aware of the difference between picking up a few words in a foreign language and being a fluent or (near) fluent speaker. I also know about understanding forms in a foreign language.

What's the point of this? Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms.

What's the point of this? Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms.

When I first arrived in Norway to take on a new job - I didn't speak Norwegian - but fairly quickly learned to navigate the company's in-house systems and computers, and began to 'grasp' the language. So you are right - you absorb what you need to know - only in my case of course it was legit.

Another poster on here (forgot who) lived in Bulgaria so will know the prevalence of English-speaking natives. I only visited the country, briefly, but found quite a few who appeared to have a basic grasp of English.

Don't the DWP deal with those who are not native English speaking individuals anyway - presumably they are used to the possible incorrect grammar or speech if they are communicating verbally?

If these criminals are intent on fraud and know how to find loopholes, I don't think a lack of fluent English would be too much of an obstacle. I sometimes have to complete forms for the Norwegian and Swedish authorities, when I'm stuck, Google Translate is a great help. Where there's a will there's a way and these bloody criminals certainly have the will.

Just checked the stats by the way. 12.5% of people in Bulgaria speak English as a first language. About 98% learn English in school - some of them will have almost native proficiency.

Incidentally, I am well aware of the difference between picking up a few words in a foreign language and being a fluent or (near) fluent speaker. I also know about understanding forms in a foreign language.

What's the point of this? Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms.

Primrose53

growstuff

Primrose53

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

GrannyGravy13

I am coming to the conclusion that it is now politically incorrect to state the bleedin’ obvious.

These were Bulgarian nationals who deliberately set out to defraud the U.K. Government, why in earth should we pussyfoot around this fact

Posting that others should be in jail is pure whataboutery

How true - to the extent that the opening post has been amended by removing mention of the nationality of these disgusting fraudsters, despite it having been mentioned in the press and on the tv and radio news. But we mustn’t mention it on GN. What are we coming to?

The nationality isn't relevant. The massive amount involved and the fact that anybody could get away with it are the important issues.

The nationality IS relevant as I said in my earlier post. It is relevant because if people whose first language is not English can defraud the system then alarm bells should be ringing and making it watertight should be top priority.

How do you know they didn't speak good English? What a load of *!

growstuff Only 12.5% of Bulgarians speak English so I stand by what I said. I bet you they had translators in court too!

Most people are able to pick up some words in another language but that’s quite different to filling in complicated forms, writing letters and so on.

The system is too easy for people to defraud.

How do you know they weren't in the 12.5% group?

Chakotay this crime "business" started in 2016... Well before lockdown.

Grammaretto do you feel that because the perpetrators of this fraud are immigrants/foreign/not terribly British, nobody should be mentioning it as it isn't very kind? The Times has covered this crime for several days, and frankly anyone indulging in organised fraud on this level deserves everything they get. Deportation too, please - we don't need dishonest scheming crooks of any nationality.

Blimey, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but I will. I’m just shocked at the number of deleted posts on page one. What’s the matter with these posters? Do they approve of fraud? Just amazed. I’ll read the full thread later, I’ve got to phone my niece now.

Callistemon21

DiamondLily

For five people, the amount they defrauded was pretty astonishing.

Yes!
They must be very clever.

Yes, but a pity it wasn’t put to better purpose.

Hopefully, they will get very long sentences, to give them time to reflect on their future life choices.

keepingquiet

GrannyGravy13

keepingquiet

At least they didn't pile up their ill gotten cash in the Cayman islands for tax dodging purposes. Wake up to the real criminals please.

Do you consider these five people to be real criminals ?

I am absolutely sick to my back teeth with the constant inferences on GN that anyone who is wealthy is a ^tax dodger^

Look I'm not defending what these people did but the fraud perpertrated every day by others goes unreported because it doesn't whip up a media storm like these sort of stories.

I think this is evidenced by the reaction on here.

I think it got the vast attention because it was the largest DWP fraud, by a single person/group, ever found, in welfare history.

Benefit fraud goes on, but, compared to this, it’s generally smaller amounts - all wrong, but not on this scale.

Some of the issues sprang from the time on lockdown, people could no longer go into the job centre to verify their ID, at the same time the amount of people having to claim went sky high, people who lost their jobs as companies closed, people who were not entitled to furlough or the 80% of wages paid through furlough were not enough, the DWP had two choices IMO not pay anyone anything with out verified ID which would have left 1000s of people with no income or as waive the ID criteria and pay all claimants, of course it would be very clear to them that it was going to be abused by doing it that way, but I agree this should have been sorted out before, I am on lot of benefit boards and have seen posts about existing claimants being asked to confirm their ID usually having usually by having to have photo of them outside their house, door and and closed with their photo ID held close to their face extra information such as letters from schools and GP surgeries are also asked for as a check on addresses. There has also been a dramatic increase in the number of people having their benefits stopped while further checks are made and also in the number of compliance interviews, I don't think it will stop the fraudsters

growstuff

Callistemon21

DiamondLily

For five people, the amount they defrauded was pretty astonishing.

Yes!
They must be very clever.

That's why I (tongue in cheek) suggested their skills and knowledge could be put to good use. There's an old saying about poachers turned gamekeepers.

Yes, haven't hackers been offered jobs afterwards?

I remember several years ago some EU high up saying if we didn’t want all these immigrants we should stop having such a generous benefits system. Basically we deserved it. It is sickening the amount of fraud in the benefits system and it’s not peanuts.

NotSpaghetti

petra

Vegansrock
Once upon a time in the dim distant past housing officers would visit a property when a housing benefit claim was made.

No, not necessarily.

I know this was the case in Southend and Malden ( Essex)
That would have been about the mid 80s.

Most people are able to pick up some words in another language but that’s quite different to filling in complicated forms, writing letters and so on.
That's an interesting point, Primrose53. DH speaks little French compared with me, but he always completed all our paperwork in France, which is very complicated if you are also running a business. The only option to get it 100% right is to err on the side of total honesty (as you should), follow the rules to the letter, and seek professional advice if needed.
Some of our French friends couldn't understand why we were doing things that way!

petra

Vegansrock
Once upon a time in the dim distant past housing officers would visit a property when a housing benefit claim was made.

No, not necessarily.

Germanshepherdsmum

Apparently the fraudulent claims started in 2016 and were detected in 2021, when investigations commenced. It was an extremely sophisticated fraud involving a lot of forged documents and stolen identities, as well as real people who applied to a company set up by the fraudsters to obtain NI numbers and benefits for the applicants. Now which legitimate UK citizen has to resort to such measures?

I remember the brouhaha about Bulgaria joining the EU.

I didn’t vote Leave but maybe I should have done! Not that it matters now as we are out.

It’s called discussing the topic lemsip. Gransnet would be very dull indeed if everybody independently replied to the original post and didn’t discuss and develop it with other posters.

it would be a good idea if people read the comments instead of this incessant....*quote quote and quote* arguing with each other.

growstuff

Primrose53

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

GrannyGravy13

I am coming to the conclusion that it is now politically incorrect to state the bleedin’ obvious.

These were Bulgarian nationals who deliberately set out to defraud the U.K. Government, why in earth should we pussyfoot around this fact

Posting that others should be in jail is pure whataboutery

How true - to the extent that the opening post has been amended by removing mention of the nationality of these disgusting fraudsters, despite it having been mentioned in the press and on the tv and radio news. But we mustn’t mention it on GN. What are we coming to?

The nationality isn't relevant. The massive amount involved and the fact that anybody could get away with it are the important issues.

The nationality IS relevant as I said in my earlier post. It is relevant because if people whose first language is not English can defraud the system then alarm bells should be ringing and making it watertight should be top priority.

How do you know they didn't speak good English? What a load of *!

growstuff Only 12.5% of Bulgarians speak English so I stand by what I said. I bet you they had translators in court too!

Most people are able to pick up some words in another language but that’s quite different to filling in complicated forms, writing letters and so on.

The system is too easy for people to defraud.

They were caught anyway, so good result!😃

Why are a few posters so uncomfortable about the crims being foreign nationals?
The sheer amount that this gang stole is newsworthy, what do they want, it swept under the carpet cos they weren’t British?
All crims who defraud for huge amounts are intelligent but no need to coo about them being clever in an admiring way.

I noted the sarcasm but still thought it very childish.

growstuff

Freya5

Siope

zakouma66

All foreigners are baddies. There you go.

And so are black or brown Britons. Every single one.

Oh dear, how childish. My African heritage BIL would disagree, so would most people, including myself.

Not childish! My sarcasm detector alert was in overdrive when I read those comments.

My sarcasm levels obviously very limited. Didn't see that at all .

Urmstongran

Blimey MaizieD! It’s headline news today in several papers - broadsheets as well as tabloids yet you think I’m being goady? Sheesh.
This takes the biscuit and I hope the Mods take a different view to you. Maybe just monitor it would be sensible?

The mods did take a different view, common sense prevails😃