Does Israel want full scale war in the Middle East?

I don’t support the killing of anyone for whatever reason and I don’t support Hamas. But anyone who thinks that what Israel’s govt is doing is not genocide needs their heads examining. Many Israelis do not support what their own govt is doing.

What Hamas did was totally unacceptable and appalling and I hope those personally responsible are caught and appropriately punished. I hope every single Israeli family, and any other nationality, who were killed or kidnapped finds out where the missing bodies are and can grieve their loss.

I still support a full ceasefire.

As for saying no one in the world likes Palestinians, they cause trouble, that is pure bigotry towards an entire race.

Where does the money go.
This article explains where. Some might disagree 🤦🏼‍♀️

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099

This article from Wednesday 03/02/2021 is an interesting read:

thearabweekly.com/hamas-leaders-seen-living-luxury-while-gazans-suffer

And back in 2012:
The tunnel trade between Gaza and Egypt has led to he creation of what we call the new millionaires," says Omar Shabban, an economist with the Gaza based think tank Palthink.

^The tunnel trade^: Smuggling through the tunnels

These new millionaires, maybe one or two hundred of them, have been able to collect a lot of money in a very short time - let's say $2m every two months. Huge money. The easiest and the safest investment for them is land," says Mr Shabban.

Luxury cars, villas, real estate.

You are right, Candelle

However, it's worth little now.

He says it is that investment which is largely responsible for forcing land prices up so rapidly.

But all this is a world away for most Gazans with the United Nations figures showing the average wage is just $15 a day

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19913897

If you read through my posts you will find the answers to most if not all of these Mollygo. No point in wasting space on a long thread by repeating myself.
Nice 🪱🪱

I don't understand the different POV's in Israel, I just don't know enough, but this article had me even more confused if anything about differing ideas as to "what next" for Israel and Gaza.
www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/18/father-of-woman-killed-at-israeli-festival-tells-of-relief-after-recovery-of-her-body

I cannot understand why, when we only have one life to live, people cannot just live in peace.

Mollygo

Mollygo

What do you think the Palestinians should do Glorianny?
What do you think Hamas should do?
Do you agree with the protests in the UK about a foreign country, especially when they may erupt into violence and endanger the lives of innocent citizens living here?
Do you think it’s helping the UK view of either side in the conflict?

Is this another example of I won’t answer you or is it that you can’t, Glorianny?

If you read through my posts you will find the answers to most if not all of these Mollygo. No point in wasting space on a long thread by repeating myself.

nanna8

Who on earth was talking about tourism ? I can’t see the relevance to anything here.

I know Candelle's posts are extremely long so here is what was said
Gaza has a wonderful coast line? Have the Palestinians used that for tourism, anything? I understand that the top Hamas elite have beautiful villas there but that's about all

The real problem is that these absolutely incorrect and misleading posts are applauded.
The Hamas villas exist but they are in Qatar.

Mollygo

What do you think the Palestinians should do Glorianny?
What do you think Hamas should do?
Do you agree with the protests in the UK about a foreign country, especially when they may erupt into violence and endanger the lives of innocent citizens living here?
Do you think it’s helping the UK view of either side in the conflict?

Is this another example of I won’t answer you or is it that you can’t, Glorianny?

Who on earth was talking about tourism ? I can’t see the relevance to anything here.

But the idea that Gaza could have a tourist industry is the most ludicrous one. How will the tourists get there?
Access to Gaza means passing through one of the checkpoints.
Last year I met a British Palestinian girl at an airport travelling to attend a wedding in Gaza. The family were flying to Tel Aviv then driving to Gaza. They hoped to be allowed in, but were not certain about how long it would take.
That really doesn't enable tourism.

It’s been announced that a fourth body has been found in Gaza; the body of another Israeli murdered on 07/10 by the Hamas murderers. He has been identified. At least his body can now be returned to his family and buried as it should be.
They will not give up, they cannot give up, because further hostages will be found, either dead or alive, but the Israeli people have been promised that the hostages will be brought home. Every Saturday night there is a huge gathering in Jerusalem with people carrying placards all saying Bring Them Home.

Another excellent post Candelle.

As for what happened in Germany
In the western sector, military leaders from the United States soon grew concerned about the economic costs of a Germany completely dependent on the United States, and the United States began investing in German industries. In 1946, the United States and Great Britain merged their occupation zones, and in 1947 the U.S. Government began a massive aid program under the Marshall Plan, which pumped dollars and goods into Europe to aid in recovery
When The Soviet Union attempted to restrict access to Berlin the West organised a massive air lift to keep part of Berlin free.
At no time were there massive restrictions or massive imprisonments.
The occupation lasted about 7 years. Israel has occupied Gaza since 1948.
So which method works?

Candelle

To Glorianny's post of 15.50 today.
I hope this is not too confusing for you, Glorianny. I have tried to respond to your points.

I wrote:
Palestinians are not liked by the rest of the Arab community.
They have caused trouble when allowed to enter and settle in Arab countries.

You wrote:
Really?!!! Your prejudice is showing.
Palestinians are in most countries. But here are the top few
Jordan 3,240,000
Israel 1,650,000
Syria 630,000
Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
United States 255,000
Some of those are Arab countries.

I reply:
Don't be ridiculous! I am not saying that there are not Palestinian people in other countries, I am saying that they are disliked and are unwanted by many as they cause trouble:
-Egypt closed its borders - they do not want their 1979 peace agreement broken and fear the destabilizing effect of having Palestinian refugees.
-The 3,240.000 Palestinians in Jordan are actually in the West Bank.
The West Bank was given to the Palestinians by Jordan to avoid a civil war. Jordan said it would not take any more as it already has a large Palestinian population.
- You may remember that the Palestinian Liberation Movement tried to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan and take over the country. They were beaten back by the Jordanian army and are now not trusted.
^Similarly, the Palestinians 'invaded' Lebanon from within and from what was once a haven of peace and and well-known beauty spot in the Middle East became another war zone and Beirut was destroyed.
-I wrote of Arab countries being very wary of accepting Palestinians so am confused by your mention of Israel; Egypt; Chile and the US. None of which are Arab nations.
-Yes, Israel has Palestinians and has given them citizenship so they are Arab-Israelis.
Please tell me if Israelis would be allowed to live in Gaza?
I repeat, there are mosques in Israel. Are there synagogues in Gaza?

I wrote:
Gaza should have developed since the last elections in 2006 but has stagnated due to lack of money (of which there has been much donated to it from other countries) as it was purloined away from the people. Aid has come in and gone out but not to the Gazan people.

You wrote and incidentally, you often do not reply to points made but counter with a completely different point, thus obfuscating the original comment:
In 2012 Israel launched an offensive against Gaza of which a minister said The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years Gaza was flattened. It was estimated at the rate Israel permitted goods to enter Gaza reconstruction would take 80 years. That's when the tunnels were built.

I reply:
I have not had opportunity to verify the above comment but if time permits will do so, or at a later date.

You wrote:
In any case you cannot have a successful economy in a country where all goods entering are monitored and there is no means of free trade.

I reply:
Why do all goods have to be monitored? Um, would it be due to the fact that they could contain arms with which they would make war on Israel? Actually most countries monitor what comes in to their land. We do - lorries are routinely checked. No?
Gaza has a wonderful coast line? Have the Palestinians used that for tourism, anything? I understand that the top Hamas elite have beautiful villas there but that's about all.
When Israel left Gaza, they left behind a large infrastructure INTACT (including most of the hospitals (or 'armories' as they are known in Gaza) shown during the recent intown fighting). Most of the fruit and vegetable growing glasshouses in first-class condition were torn down. The Palestinians had the makings of an excellent industry!

I wrote:
Glorianny asks what Israel could do and writes of a graduated withdrawal from Gaza. Does she not understand that the only reason Israel has any involvement in Gaza is because Hamas have their soldiers hidden amongst the people. It will be impossible for Israel to withdraw under those circumstances.

You wrote:
You cannot destroy ideas. Israel by trying to control Gaza (and its restrictions even when troops withdraw are those of an occupying force) puts itself in the firing line.

I reply:
We actually agree! You cannot destroy ideas. The ideas of the Palestinian elite is to take what is due to the Palestinian people and keep it for themselves whilst firing up the 'ordinary' Palestinian and keeping them downtrodden. Palestinian children are taught to hate from their childhood. I really think that you ought to listen to some interviews with them - perhaps not their fault but they are consumed with hate. Some live here too - and hate our ideals.......

I wrote:
I always think of World War 11. It is as if, around 1943, the world said to the Allies, 'OK chaps, ouo have had a bit of war', now withdraw, despite Germany having occupied much of Europe. One has to root out evil and these people are evil - they do not have the same thoughts as we in the West do. They want all Jews killed (check their manifesto) and nothing less

You write:
Had the Allies continued to occupy Germany, refused to allow Germans to travel, imprisoned them without trial and restricted their access to food and water how do you think things would have gone?

I reply:
The Allies did occupy Germany, restricted their travel etc., until they were sure there was no threat. I imagine many were imprisoned.
Why do you assume that every Palestinian prisoner in Israel is innocent? The 'children' in Israeli prisons are seventeen-year-old strong young men, not six year-olds, however do remember David and Goliath. Slingshots can be lethal weapons..
Restricted their access to food and water? I will state again:
Hamas planned war on Israel.
Hamas made NO effort to secure food, water or temporary accommodation let alone medical supplies for their population whom, they knew would be in the depths of military action as they had planted their war machinery in homes and public places.
Hamas did nothing for their people.
Did the Germans want to kill every Ally? No.
Do the Palestinians declare they want to kill every Jew? Yes.
It's not quite the same scenario as you imply.

It isn't really worth arguing with someone who has such a lack of knowledge so I'll just choose the glaringly obvious mistake
The 3,240.000 Palestinians in Jordan are actually in the West Bank.
The West Bank was given to the Palestinians by Jordan to avoid a civil war. Jordan said it would not take any more as it already has a large Palestinian population
The Reality
Most Palestinians in Jordan live in the north-western part of the country, primarily in the environs of Amman, Zarqa, and Irbid. These cities are part of the Amman, Zarqa, and Irbid Governorsates
The West Bank
Presently, most of the West Bank is administered by Israel though 42% of it is under varying degrees of autonomous rule by the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

The reason Egypt closed its borders was not fear of Palestinians but a refusal to be part of the Israeli attempt to drive Palestinians into the Sinai

A 17 year old is still legally a child. And any person, never mind a child, is entitled to be treated in a reasonable way. To have a fair trial, not to be subjected to torture, or held in solitary confinement or prevented from seeing family.
Children as young as 12 have been arrested and interrogated by Israeli police and then imprisoned without seeing their parents.
There really is no justification for such treatment.

Even the concept that it keeps Israel safe has been discounted by the events of 7/10. Violence breeds violence.

^You write^:
Had the Allies continued to occupy Germany, refused to allow Germans to travel, imprisoned them without trial and restricted their access to food and water how do you think things would have gone?

Actually, the Soviet Union did just that with half of Germany and we all know how that went for decades.

Unfortunately our former ally proved to be a treacherous enemy.

To Glorianny's post of 15.50 today.
I hope this is not too confusing for you, Glorianny. I have tried to respond to your points.

I wrote:
Palestinians are not liked by the rest of the Arab community.
They have caused trouble when allowed to enter and settle in Arab countries.

You wrote:
Really?!!! Your prejudice is showing.
Palestinians are in most countries. But here are the top few
Jordan 3,240,000
Israel 1,650,000
Syria 630,000
Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
United States 255,000
Some of those are Arab countries.

I reply:
Don't be ridiculous! I am not saying that there are not Palestinian people in other countries, I am saying that they are disliked and are unwanted by many as they cause trouble:
-Egypt closed its borders - they do not want their 1979 peace agreement broken and fear the destabilizing effect of having Palestinian refugees.
-The 3,240.000 Palestinians in Jordan are actually in the West Bank.
The West Bank was given to the Palestinians by Jordan to avoid a civil war. Jordan said it would not take any more as it already has a large Palestinian population.
- You may remember that the Palestinian Liberation Movement tried to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan and take over the country. They were beaten back by the Jordanian army and are now not trusted.
^Similarly, the Palestinians 'invaded' Lebanon from within and from what was once a haven of peace and and well-known beauty spot in the Middle East became another war zone and Beirut was destroyed.
-I wrote of Arab countries being very wary of accepting Palestinians so am confused by your mention of Israel; Egypt; Chile and the US. None of which are Arab nations.
-Yes, Israel has Palestinians and has given them citizenship so they are Arab-Israelis.
Please tell me if Israelis would be allowed to live in Gaza?
I repeat, there are mosques in Israel. Are there synagogues in Gaza?

I wrote:
Gaza should have developed since the last elections in 2006 but has stagnated due to lack of money (of which there has been much donated to it from other countries) as it was purloined away from the people. Aid has come in and gone out but not to the Gazan people.

You wrote and incidentally, you often do not reply to points made but counter with a completely different point, thus obfuscating the original comment:
In 2012 Israel launched an offensive against Gaza of which a minister said The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years Gaza was flattened. It was estimated at the rate Israel permitted goods to enter Gaza reconstruction would take 80 years. That's when the tunnels were built.

I reply:
I have not had opportunity to verify the above comment but if time permits will do so, or at a later date.

You wrote:
In any case you cannot have a successful economy in a country where all goods entering are monitored and there is no means of free trade.

I reply:
Why do all goods have to be monitored? Um, would it be due to the fact that they could contain arms with which they would make war on Israel? Actually most countries monitor what comes in to their land. We do - lorries are routinely checked. No?
Gaza has a wonderful coast line? Have the Palestinians used that for tourism, anything? I understand that the top Hamas elite have beautiful villas there but that's about all.
When Israel left Gaza, they left behind a large infrastructure INTACT (including most of the hospitals (or 'armories' as they are known in Gaza) shown during the recent intown fighting). Most of the fruit and vegetable growing glasshouses in first-class condition were torn down. The Palestinians had the makings of an excellent industry!

I wrote:
Glorianny asks what Israel could do and writes of a graduated withdrawal from Gaza. Does she not understand that the only reason Israel has any involvement in Gaza is because Hamas have their soldiers hidden amongst the people. It will be impossible for Israel to withdraw under those circumstances.

You wrote:
You cannot destroy ideas. Israel by trying to control Gaza (and its restrictions even when troops withdraw are those of an occupying force) puts itself in the firing line.

I reply:
We actually agree! You cannot destroy ideas. The ideas of the Palestinian elite is to take what is due to the Palestinian people and keep it for themselves whilst firing up the 'ordinary' Palestinian and keeping them downtrodden. Palestinian children are taught to hate from their childhood. I really think that you ought to listen to some interviews with them - perhaps not their fault but they are consumed with hate. Some live here too - and hate our ideals.......

I wrote:
I always think of World War 11. It is as if, around 1943, the world said to the Allies, 'OK chaps, ouo have had a bit of war', now withdraw, despite Germany having occupied much of Europe. One has to root out evil and these people are evil - they do not have the same thoughts as we in the West do. They want all Jews killed (check their manifesto) and nothing less

You write:
Had the Allies continued to occupy Germany, refused to allow Germans to travel, imprisoned them without trial and restricted their access to food and water how do you think things would have gone?

I reply:
The Allies did occupy Germany, restricted their travel etc., until they were sure there was no threat. I imagine many were imprisoned.
Why do you assume that every Palestinian prisoner in Israel is innocent? The 'children' in Israeli prisons are seventeen-year-old strong young men, not six year-olds, however do remember David and Goliath. Slingshots can be lethal weapons..
Restricted their access to food and water? I will state again:
Hamas planned war on Israel.
Hamas made NO effort to secure food, water or temporary accommodation let alone medical supplies for their population whom, they knew would be in the depths of military action as they had planted their war machinery in homes and public places.
Hamas did nothing for their people.
Did the Germans want to kill every Ally? No.
Do the Palestinians declare they want to kill every Jew? Yes.
It's not quite the same scenario as you imply.

What do you think the Palestinians should do Glorianny?
What do you think Hamas should do?
Do you agree with the protests in the UK about a foreign country, especially when they may erupt into violence and endanger the lives of innocent citizens living here?
Do you think it’s helping the UK view of either side in the conflict?

Honestly the ignorance sometimes displayed on these threads is amazing.
Both sets of figures are "Hamas" figures.
The first were released by the GMO (Gaza Media Office)
The second are ones verified by the GHS (Gaza Health Service).
Both organisations work as part of the Hamas government.
The GMO issued figures based on reports to them.
The GHS has verified the deaths of those they can identify and give a name to.
No one knows how many others are dead.

Thanks Candelle and Petra
A few pro Palestinian supporters on here have constantly said that women and children, meaning under 18, have made up almost three quarters of deaths in Gaza! They really believed all the hamas guff that was spouted.
Israel must finish what’s been started and no doubt they will do until hamas is a spent force there.
I realise that with Iran’s money they will regroup but they will have lost so much it will take ages, which gives Israel a chance to build up its strength.Can’t see any democratic voting putting hamas in charge again either.They’ve blown it.

Here is the report.
Exactly what a lot of us have been saying for months.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-69025420

Figures of Gaza casualties in February were higher than casualties in Ukraine !

Thank you for your excellent post again Candelle.
The figures of deaths reported in Gaza are the figures reported by Hamas.
I have never believed a word the release. However that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe people have died, I’m certain many have, but I don’t believe the figures reported by Hamas.
Why would any reasonable person believe what a terrorist organisation says?

The casualty figures have not been halved.
They remain around 35,000.
The percentage of women and children has changed.
This seems to be due to a difference in reporting accepted. The Health Ministry initially accepted deaths recorded in hospitals, but the GMO used other methods.
I doubt if either is exact.
People aren't dying in hospital now because they are not functioning.
There will be bodies lying undiscovered and others in places where they are unreachable. It's too early to count for certain and certainly too early to crow about the numbers.

Candelle

Palestinians are not liked by the rest of the Arab community.

They have caused trouble when allowed to enter and settle in Arab countries.

This may be why there has not been a wide-scale offer of help from Palestine's extremely wealthy Arab neighbours. Is it why Egypt has kept its border crossing shut?

Gaza should have developed since the last elections in 2006 but has stagnated due to the lack of money (of which there has been much) donated to it from other countries, purloined away from the people. Aid has come in and gone out but not to the Gazan people.

Glorianny asks what Israel could do and writes of a graduated withdrawal from Gaza. Does she not understand that the only reason Israel has any involvement in Gaza is because Hamas have their soldiers hidden amongst the people. It will be impossible for Israel to withdraw under those circumstances.

I always think of World War 11. It is as if, around 1943, the world said to the Allies, 'OK chaps, yo have had a bit of war', now withdraw, despite Germany having occupied much of Europe. One has to root out evil and these people are evil - they do not have the same thoughts as we in the West do. They want all Jews killed (check their manifesto) and nothing less.

The sickening way much of the world has turned against Israel, not the aggressor, often without understanding or knowledge says much about the way we are living at the moment.

Incidentally, have you seen in the press that the number of casualties in Gaza has just been HALVED? All previous figures came from.... Hamas and were lapped up by the press. There was no need to actually check, was there?

Not too much exposure has been given to the these new, accurate figures, eh? Why? It suits the narrative for Israel to be a ruthless killer instead of fighting for its very survival.

Palestinians are not liked by the rest of the Arab community.

They have caused trouble when allowed to enter and settle in Arab countries.
Really?!!! Your prejudice is showing.
Palestinians are in most countries. But here are the top few
Jordan 3,240,000
Israel 1,650,000
Syria 630,000
Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
United States 255,000
Some of those are Arab countries.

Gaza should have developed since the last elections in 2006 but has stagnated due to the lack of money (of which there has been much) donated to it from other countries, purloined away from the people. Aid has come in and gone out but not to the Gazan people
In 2012 Israel launched an offensive against Gaza of which a minister said The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years Gaza was flattened. It was estimated at the rate Israel permitted goods to enter Gaza reconstruction would take 80 years. That's when the tunnels were built.
In any case you cannot have a successful economy in a country where all goods entering are monitored and there is no means of free trade.

Glorianny asks what Israel could do and writes of a graduated withdrawal from Gaza. Does she not understand that the only reason Israel has any involvement in Gaza is because Hamas have their soldiers hidden amongst the people. It will be impossible for Israel to withdraw under those circumstances
You cannot destroy ideas. Israel by trying to control Gaza (and its restrictions even when troops withdraw are those of an occupying force) puts itself in the firing line.

I always think of World War 11. It is as if, around 1943, the world said to the Allies, 'OK chaps, yo have had a bit of war', now withdraw, despite Germany having occupied much of Europe. One has to root out evil and these people are evil - they do not have the same thoughts as we in the West do. They want all Jews killed (check their manifesto) and nothing less
Had the Allies continued to occupy Germany, refused to allow Germans to travel, imprisoned them without trial and restricted their access to food and water how do you think things would have gone?

I'm looking at the casualty figures.

^ Glorianny^

I really don't think I could speak for any Palestinian.
But you feel you can say what Israel could do, despite not having lived . . .
🪱🪱🪱