Scottish political mess. Is Devolution working?

I rest my case.

'Understanding of 'separateness'? I would have thought 'differences' would be a better choice of word.

Casdon

I’ll no doubt be shot down for saying this, but I don’t think English people really understand what it feels like to be Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish in the structure of the UK. Having your concerns and issues dismissed, without any understanding of your separateness is not the way to encourage union.

Their issues are no different than Cornwall or Yorkshire or Rural areas devolution hasn’t been a great success and change have mostly been just for the sake of being different.

Katie59

I don’t really care if devolution is working or not give them independence and let them stew in their own chaos.

Is this the English heritage you want to be proud of?

Agree Casdon

They should be proud of their English heritage, there’s much to be proud about.Nobody should allow others to say otherwise.
Just as Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh are proud of their own heritages.

I’ll no doubt be shot down for saying this, but I don’t think English people really understand what it feels like to be Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish in the structure of the UK. Having your concerns and issues dismissed, without any understanding of your separateness is not the way to encourage union.

The English identify as such to distinguish ourselves from the Scots who choose to see themselves as different they would say it about national heritage, so why should English not be proud of their heritage

If devolution continues without the aggressive SNP demands for referendums for independence and they concentrate on the needs of Scotland instead, that would be good.Even better if they ceased to be the leading political party there.

For a proportion of Scots, the resentment you name was under the surface well before devolution.

Oreo

Elegran

SillyOma The truth is, quite a lot of English people DO see England as an alternative name for the UK or for Great Britain, and therefore they think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland should be exact copies of England, with no variation in their opinions, attitude, legislation, history, culture or anything else. That is the reason for devolution - to give space for those differences to exist.

Really? Who are these people?
I’ve never met any that think England is an alternative name for the UK or Great Britain or don’t agree with devolution.

Yet there are posts on this very thread wanting Scottish national political life to become provincial English life, with the same attitudes and the same decisions.

Elegran

There are good and bad features in all governing bodies, and that is as true of one part of the Uk as in another. Different elected parties make dfferent decisions and pass different legislation. I am sure that the Tory majority in Westminster has passed some laws that not everyone in England and Wales approves of (and which other countries within the UK don't approve of either) so why condemn Devolution for the mistakes of the SNP currently in a majority in Scotland?

The next election in Scotland could bring into power a party with a new perspective - do critics of the current direction of Scottish politics really want to prevent Scots from having the freedom to choose for themselves who is to steer them through the next chapter, and to prioritise the issues that most concern them?

On some issues Scots are way ahead of Westminster. They are not savages in woad, ignorant of some superior civilisation that abounds south of the border. Please don't assume that they are not capable of conducting their own public life. Micro-managing from afar is colonialism.

The SNP haven’t managed things very well but may do better under a new leader, who knows? Devolution was thought to be a good move for the benefit of the partners in the Union, but was it really? Isn’t it true that in practise it’s made those countries more resentful of England/Westminster, even to the point of wanting to pull away altogether?It’s made me think about this matter and to wonder about it.
It’s good to maintain cultural differences but also to realise we are a Union.

Wheniwasyourage said "It seems that even those who are not for independence are happy to continue with devolution." and that is my impression. A change of power could moderate demands for total independence into a concerted effort to increase Scottish affluence and influence.

Are those non-scots who want to scrap devolution because the current party in power have hit an internal crisis of probity and identity also considering the state of the current party in power in Westminster? Perhaps it is time to consider bringing to an end the system under which UK representatives of democracy are in government over us all?

First-past-the-post means that the votes of many segments of the population are not effective at all, the system of whips means that individual MPs become merely the tools of official doctrine, and weak application of standards of personal morality and financial probity make a mockery of any claims of "public service".

I doubt an independent Scotland could maintain an adequate standard of living for people without a continuing subsidy from the UK, essentially from England.

Elegran

SillyOma The truth is, quite a lot of English people DO see England as an alternative name for the UK or for Great Britain, and therefore they think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland should be exact copies of England, with no variation in their opinions, attitude, legislation, history, culture or anything else. That is the reason for devolution - to give space for those differences to exist.

Really? Who are these people?
I’ve never met any that think England is an alternative name for the UK or Great Britain or don’t agree with devolution.

OldFrill

Maremia

Delighted as ever, that Scottish affairs are being given such attention on Gransnet, and much as I appreciate your concern about the votes soon to be taken at Holyrood, may I remind you of an equally important vote taking place in England on the 2nd of May. For your own sakes, identify and support DECENT people, and I think you know what I mean by decent, who will fight for funding, for essential services, like Education. I am prompted to say this by Sally Weale's report in the Guardian online this morning, telling us that Teaching Assistants routinely cover lessons in England and Wales. Now, she doesn't mention Scotland. Perhaps her research didn't cover this country, or perhaps it doesn't happen here to that extent. With 6000 TAs being questioned, 2 in 5 admitted that they were covering classes for at least 5 hours per week, and that it was getting worse.
Yes, maintain your interest in Scottish affairs by all means, but please, use the 2nd of May to fill your councils with Candidates who genuinely have your interests at heart.

A vote concerning the First Minister of Scotland is equivalent to council elections in England. Says it all.

It doesn’t tho.
It’s only Maremia who thinks so.

SillyOma The truth is, quite a lot of English people DO see England as an alternative name for the UK or for Great Britain, and therefore they think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland should be exact copies of England, with no variation in their opinions, attitude, legislation, history, culture or anything else. That is the reason for devolution - to give space for those differences to exist.

It would seem that the sort of politicians most of us would want, don’t want the jobs any more.

This is what I am beginning to think, that people of integrity are outmanoeuvred everywhere by those whose ambitions are solely for themselves and their own advancement, not to serve their country.
And facing a huge wave of criticism for every action, however well intentioned, by those who never get of their backsides to involve themselves in any sort of altruistic activity.

There are good and bad features in all governing bodies, and that is as true of one part of the Uk as in another. Different elected parties make dfferent decisions and pass different legislation. I am sure that the Tory majority in Westminster has passed some laws that not everyone in England and Wales approves of (and which other countries within the UK don't approve of either) so why condemn Devolution for the mistakes of the SNP currently in a majority in Scotland?

The next election in Scotland could bring into power a party with a new perspective - do critics of the current direction of Scottish politics really want to prevent Scots from having the freedom to choose for themselves who is to steer them through the next chapter, and to prioritise the issues that most concern them?

On some issues Scots are way ahead of Westminster. They are not savages in woad, ignorant of some superior civilisation that abounds south of the border. Please don't assume that they are not capable of conducting their own public life. Micro-managing from afar is colonialism.

I do wish people would stop pretending it’s a simple issue and ‘most’ Scots don’t want independence, or do want independence. The evidence is that the country has been, and remains, very divided. It’s not about the SNP either. There isn’t going to be any compromise which suits everybody is there, and being dismissive of people you disagree with doesn’t help.

Fridayschild

Katie59

I don’t really care if devolution is working or not give them independence and let them stew in their own chaos.

Well that’s a nasty comment! The majority of Scots did not want independence. You’re speaking about the minority. I’m a Scot, I’m also as British as you probably are.o

Most Scots dont want independence because the know they won’t be able to blame the English for their own incompetence, they want their cake and eat it. Either accept you are part of the UK and stop complaining or go your own way.

Just like Brexit you can be independant but there is a big cost.

SillyOma

I worked in North Wales, a number of years ago, however only for 1 year and the Welsh reminded me of the Scots. They are a proud people and like the Scots there are folk who would like Independence. I personally would never consider Wales part of England. What I see is a real movement in Northern Ireland with exceptionally strong leaders taking their country forward. I hope the same happens in Scotland. Wales I believe is strongly labour and that may be difficult for them considering the Labour party's view on independent countries.

Wales has never been part of England. Neither has Scotland. Please learn the difference between England and UK/Great Britain

paddyann54

A political leader/party threatened by their "support" partner in government that they will leave unless things are done their way.....hmmm I and the people I know are happy that Humza ditched them .Maybe they'll have learned that issuing threats leads to consequences . The tail should never wag the dog as the lib dems found out when they went into government with the tories...whatever happened to the NO tuition fees

As for Slater wailing that its ALL Humza's fault that they are off their ministerial seats .well maybe she needs to grow up and stop acting like a toddler.Actions have reactions.
I notice many people rejoining the SNP ,saying the Greens let them down and they wont get their second vote next time around which is the main way they got in before ,just folk voting for a pro Independence party to keep the unionist parties out.
You know the way the Labour Party..."we wont ever be in coalition with Tories" are now in coalition with...TORIES in councils across Scotland to keep the SNP out of power.
Its a strange old world this politics when Sarwar says one thing one day and changes to suit his London master the next.OR maybe not so strange when legally there is NO Scottish Labour party registered here its London based and London led .
Another reason to get the hell out of the disunited kingdom....why would we want to be run by folk who know begger all about us and care even less .

Re coalitions Paddyann54 - Humza claims he's written to Scotland Conservatives, Labour and LibDems BEGGING for support - oh and the Greens too - he's said he's sorry he didn't mean to upset them but throwing them out of their ministerial roles!
Billy Connelly was the funniest Scotsman but Humza's vying for his title 😂😂

Maremia

Delighted as ever, that Scottish affairs are being given such attention on Gransnet, and much as I appreciate your concern about the votes soon to be taken at Holyrood, may I remind you of an equally important vote taking place in England on the 2nd of May. For your own sakes, identify and support DECENT people, and I think you know what I mean by decent, who will fight for funding, for essential services, like Education. I am prompted to say this by Sally Weale's report in the Guardian online this morning, telling us that Teaching Assistants routinely cover lessons in England and Wales. Now, she doesn't mention Scotland. Perhaps her research didn't cover this country, or perhaps it doesn't happen here to that extent. With 6000 TAs being questioned, 2 in 5 admitted that they were covering classes for at least 5 hours per week, and that it was getting worse.
Yes, maintain your interest in Scottish affairs by all means, but please, use the 2nd of May to fill your councils with Candidates who genuinely have your interests at heart.

I'm in Wales.
We only have elections for Police and Crime Commissioners.

We can comment on whatever we want, we can multi-task.

A political leader/party threatened by their "support" partner in government that they will leave unless things are done their way.....hmmm I and the people I know are happy that Humza ditched them .Maybe they'll have learned that issuing threats leads to consequences . The tail should never wag the dog as the lib dems found out when they went into government with the tories...whatever happened to the NO tuition fees

As for Slater wailing that its ALL Humza's fault that they are off their ministerial seats .well maybe she needs to grow up and stop acting like a toddler.Actions have reactions.
I notice many people rejoining the SNP ,saying the Greens let them down and they wont get their second vote next time around which is the main way they got in before ,just folk voting for a pro Independence party to keep the unionist parties out.
You know the way the Labour Party..."we wont ever be in coalition with Tories" are now in coalition with...TORIES in councils across Scotland to keep the SNP out of power.
Its a strange old world this politics when Sarwar says one thing one day and changes to suit his London master the next.OR maybe not so strange when legally there is NO Scottish Labour party registered here its London based and London led .
Another reason to get the hell out of the disunited kingdom....why would we want to be run by folk who know begger all about us and care even less .