NHS U turn on trans terminology

I’ve read your post Daddima.
Which lies do you think it’s OK to accept and promote, and which should be refuted, whether about trans or not?

M0nica

A long time ago, if I was on the tube, my mind in neutral and idly looking at fellow passengers, I would suddenly realise that the woman sitting opposite me was, what I then assumed was, transvestite. The give-away was always the wrists. Generally men's wrists are larger and bonier than women's. This was, of course at a time when the majority of men of all ages were not obese.

I rarely travel by tube these days, but just walking round almost any town, it is not uncommon to see men walking around dressed as women, without any attempt to hide their sex. Their beards or stubble make their sex clear. I am not clear what gender these men claim, but should they be accepted in female sport, female changing rooms, female prisons if they claim they are women?

I rarely travel by tube these days, but just walking round almost any town, it is not uncommon to see men walking around dressed as women, without any attempt to hide their sex. Their beards or stubble make their sex clear. I am not clear what gender these men claim, but should they be accepted in female sport, female changing rooms, female prisons if they claim they are women?

No!

But I've no objection to them walking around in dresses, or whatever 'female' apparel makes them feel good!

I know it's not quite the same comparison, but no-one victimises me for swanning around in jeans with a fly - an item of clothing designed specifically for men, which is totally unnecessary for women - so by the same token...

But I've no objection to them walking around in dresses, or whatever 'female' apparel makes them feel good!
Me neither, just as long as wearing a dress, lipstick or whatever doesn't makes them think they've now changed sex. I don't own a single dress, have 3 or 4 skirts that could be moth-eaten since the last time I saw them, and live my life in jeans, linen, cotton, velvet or cord trousers. I don't claim manhood because I wear trousers with a fly.

Rosie51

^But I've no objection to them walking around in dresses, or whatever 'female' apparel makes them feel good!^
Me neither, just as long as wearing a dress, lipstick or whatever doesn't makes them think they've now changed sex. I don't own a single dress, have 3 or 4 skirts that could be moth-eaten since the last time I saw them, and live my life in jeans, linen, cotton, velvet or cord trousers. I don't claim manhood because I wear trousers with a fly.

I don't claim manhood because I wear trousers with a fly.

Me neither.

I'm assuming that not all men in women's wear claim they are women either. They may not all even be transwomen, who knows.

I would say most agree with you Daddima no one can change sex. As to the treatment of gender dysphoria I have no idea what will happen in the future, the perspective on the treatment if children has changed completely in a very short time.

Daddima , I read your post and was s bit surprised you didn’t expect posters to read it. No one can change sex. That is agreed by the vast majority of people who regularly contribute to discussions on ‘trans issues’

I'm assuming that not all men in women's wear claim they are women either. They may not all even be transwomen, who knows.

This is the problem, we do not and cannot know, and why the clarity of sex must be upheld in many situations.

Absolutely Daddima and IMO it is the mind that needs to be addressed first, to ensure as far as possible that this is what the person wants and that they know that regardless of hormonal and surgical treatments they undertake that they cannot change sex. Also to help them prepare for the physical, psychological and social hurdles they'll need to overcome.

Dickens

Rosie51

But I've no objection to them walking around in dresses, or whatever 'female' apparel makes them feel good!
Me neither, just as long as wearing a dress, lipstick or whatever doesn't makes them think they've now changed sex. I don't own a single dress, have 3 or 4 skirts that could be moth-eaten since the last time I saw them, and live my life in jeans, linen, cotton, velvet or cord trousers. I don't claim manhood because I wear trousers with a fly.

I don't claim manhood because I wear trousers with a fly.

Me neither.

I'm assuming that not all men in women's wear claim they are women either. They may not all even be transwomen, who knows.

It's quite common in our town now to see stag parties in dresses, heels and make up. They are men dressed up.
The hen parties seem to go for minimal clothing.

Even at the airport when we went away, there was a very loud and boisterous bridal party with the groom in a wedding dress and veil and his groomsmen in cocktail dresses. They all used the male toilets though, the groom cursing loudly at having to lift his dress out of the way, much to the amusement of those in the corridor.

Smileless2012

Absolutely Daddima and IMO it is the mind that needs to be addressed first, to ensure as far as possible that this is what the person wants and that they know that regardless of hormonal and surgical treatments they undertake that they cannot change sex. Also to help them prepare for the physical, psychological and social hurdles they'll need to overcome.

Honestly why post about something without finding out if it happens
NHS treatment for GD
GDCs have a multidisciplinary team of healthcare professionals, who offer ongoing assessments, treatments, support and advice, including:

psychological support, such as counselling
cross-sex hormone therapy
speech and language therapy (voice therapy) to help you sound more typical of your gender identity

it’s quite common now in our town to see stag parties in heels, dresses and makeup. They are men dressed up. The hen parties seem to go for minimal clothing
There you go again, judging women by critical standards that you don’t apply to men

A transwoman by the very nature of being one, will not have had the same life experiences or challenges as a woman. There may be points at which their paths cross (intersectional?) but largely speaking, someone whose identity matches their sex is not going to experience the angst and issues associated with those where it doesn't

Life experiences are not the same for all women. I'm white so I will never truly appreciate the racism black women experience. I'm from a respectable working class background so my experiences are different to a woman living in poverty on a sink council estate where crime is rife. I don't share the experience of having to flee violence some women have. Because I am aware that there are different levels of discrimination and other women experiences are not the same as mine I'm an Intersectional feminist. Transwomen are women who face other forms of discrimination. Just as black women, working class women, women asylum seekers, muslim women, and many other categories of women, experience different degrees of discrimination and oppression, so do transwomen. That's what intersectional feminism is. Imagining all women share similar experiences is just not true.
Here's a link to explain
iwda.org.au/what-does-intersectional-feminism-actually-mean/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwudexBhDKARIsAI-GWYU6Xml76D2X_M3HRz5d9esJg0irERj8DAl4nRqVeI0eQiUkzPTG6sYaAq6fEALw_wcB

Iam64

*it’s quite common now in our town to see stag parties in heels, dresses and makeup. They are men dressed up. The hen parties seem to go for minimal clothing*
There you go again, judging women by critical standards that you don’t apply to men

Oh dear I don't mind the hens wearing minimal clothing. Why should you imagine I do? That's your judgement isn't it. It's simply a way of covering short skimpy dresses, boob tubes and many other items in one word.

So at what point does your IF allow you to prioritise, or even consider, the needs of Muslim women who are unable to share changing rooms with males? Or a victim of DV who is terrified by the knowledge that a male (who could be a friend of her attacker) is in the place she went for refuge?

I've asked this ad nauseam, but will try again - is there, or has there ever been a circumstance in which you would put the needs of women ahead of those of males?

Doodledog

So at what point does your IF allow you to prioritise, or even consider, the needs of Muslim women who are unable to share changing rooms with males? Or a victim of DV who is terrified by the knowledge that a male (who could be a friend of her attacker) is in the place she went for refuge?

I've asked this ad nauseam, but will try again - is there, or has there ever been a circumstance in which you would put the needs of women ahead of those of males?

Doodledog I've said it so many times no one should have to share a changing room individual cubicles should always be available as should family friendly rooms for mums and dads with kids.

I take it the person in the refuge is a transwoman? I wouldn't expect any refuge to admit anyone without efficiently risk assessing them. So a woman entering should know she is safe from any abuser or anyone who might have connections with her abuser. Refuges became expert at checking backgrounds when they found some of the women they were admitting were abusing other women. If the woman is really fearful she could ask to be moved to somewhere with no possible connection to her abuser..

black women, working class women, women asylum seekers, muslim women, and many other categories of women, experience different degrees of discrimination and oppression and to quote the great Jenni Murray on her final Women's Hour^ 'there are many, many stereotypes associated with our gender. But our sex we share.'
All the categories of women you mention also share our sex, transwomen do not. Any man who insists on access to women’s spaces illustrates that he’s not just biologically not a woman but also doesn’t think, appreciate the fear, or feel like a woman or he'd have more compassion and stay out.

I didn't say it doesn't happen Glorianny I'm saying how important it is that it does happen and it doesn't appear to be happening in every case. If it were, there wouldn't be cases where some have realised it was the wrong thing for them to have done.

Honestly, why do you persist in fabricating and/or twisting what others post?

Transwomen are women who face other forms of discrimination but they are not discriminated against for being women, because they're not.

Intersectional feminists are not the only ones who understand that not all women share similar experiences. Good grief, you don't have to be a woman and a feminist to know that, just a reasonably intelligent human being.

Leaving the discriminatory behaviour of having a woman be the one to have to move to accommodate a male, why is it that you think that no-one should share a changing room?

Dh has never and would never commit a violent offence. He would pass any risk assessment. By that calculation any man who has not committed a violent offence should be in a female refuge. Why not?

Doodledog

Leaving the discriminatory behaviour of having a woman be the one to have to move to accommodate a male, why is it that you think that no-one should share a changing room?

The woman is not moving "to accommodate a male". The exact same process would apply if another woman in the refuge had connections with her abuser. She is moved away from an environment where her abuser could make contact through a third party. Many women need to be moved because relatives or friends of her abuser leak her whereabouts to him.

Why should anyone have to undress in front of another person whatever the sex and gender of that person?

Galaxy

Dh has never and would never commit a violent offence. He would pass any risk assessment. By that calculation any man who has not committed a violent offence should be in a female refuge. Why not?

I don't risk assess in refuges so how would I know?

Mollygo

I’ve read your post Daddima.
Which lies do you think it’s OK to accept and promote, and which should be refuted, whether about trans or not?

I don’t know where I mentioned accepting and promoting lies, so maybe I didn’t express myself well enough. It just seemed to me that the discussion had become rather personal and contradicting of each other, so much so that I had completely lost track of the argument.

* Honestly why post about something without finding out if it happens
NHS treatment for GD
GDCs have a multidisciplinary team of healthcare professionals, who offer ongoing assessments, treatments, support and advice, including:

psychological support, such as counselling
cross-sex hormone therapy
speech and language therapy (voice therapy) to help you sound more typical of your gender identity*

I’m also a bit confused by this, but I would hope that the counselling which is offered would thoroughly examine why the person felt the need to identify as a different sex.

I support single sex spaces, but there is no way of implementing it because we cant tell who are male or female, we should organise single sex spaces by risk assessment (and permit men if they 'pass' the assesment) or organise single sex spaces by a vote which may permit men.
None of these things are actual support for single sex spaces.

Rosie51

^black women, working class women, women asylum seekers, muslim women, and many other categories of women, experience different degrees of discrimination and oppression^ and to quote the great Jenni Murray on her final Women's Hour^ 'there are many, many stereotypes associated with our gender. But our sex we share.'
All the categories of women you mention also share our sex, transwomen do not. Any man who insists on access to women’s spaces illustrates that he’s not just biologically not a woman but also doesn’t think, appreciate the fear, or feel like a woman or he'd have more compassion and stay out.

But no-one apart from my doctor, my children and a few other medical practitioners can be certain of my sex. I am judged and treated the way I am because I present as a woman, which is a gender not a sex issue. Transwomen are treated as women because they present as women, then discriminated against because they are trans.
Certainly in situations where my sex matters I may also be discriminated against, that's another level of discrimination. It may be in giving birth, but not all women give birth, it may be during the menopause, but not all women need medical help in the menopause or even particularly have problems.
Certainly sex may be involved in discrimination but it has never been and is not the only reason women are discriminated against.
When I meet a man who talks over me at a meeting he doesn't know my sex, he sees a woman and thinks I don't matter because of my appearance.