NHS U turn on trans terminology

Transwomen are treated as either special men or vulnerable men, they are not in treated as women.

Transwomen are transwomen. Full stop. Nothing more and nothing less.

Glorianny

^A transwoman by the very nature of being one, will not have had the same life experiences or challenges as a woman. There may be points at which their paths cross (intersectional?) but largely speaking, someone whose identity matches their sex is not going to experience the angst and issues associated with those where it doesn't^

Life experiences are not the same for all women. I'm white so I will never truly appreciate the racism black women experience. I'm from a respectable working class background so my experiences are different to a woman living in poverty on a sink council estate where crime is rife. I don't share the experience of having to flee violence some women have. Because I am aware that there are different levels of discrimination and other women experiences are not the same as mine I'm an Intersectional feminist. Transwomen are women who face other forms of discrimination. Just as black women, working class women, women asylum seekers, muslim women, and many other categories of women, experience different degrees of discrimination and oppression, so do transwomen. That's what intersectional feminism is. Imagining all women share similar experiences is just not true.
Here's a link to explain
iwda.org.au/what-does-intersectional-feminism-actually-mean/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwudexBhDKARIsAI-GWYU6Xml76D2X_M3HRz5d9esJg0irERj8DAl4nRqVeI0eQiUkzPTG6sYaAq6fEALw_wcB

Imagining all women share similar experiences is just not true.

I'm pretty sure women do share similar experiences - menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breast-feeding, menopause - their background or culture obviously will have an effect on how they experience these, but they are nevertheless stages in biological development that women share which men, achieving male puberty, don't. However they identify.

Seriously Glorianny you think Alex Drummond, lesbian transwoman is discriminated against because of being perceived as a woman?

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.
I’m also still irritated that women who support women are dismissed as not being well informed enough to toe the activist line

Especially Iam when those who dismiss those women for not being well informed enough to toe the activist line appear to be less well informed, which could be why they do toe the activist line.

In what ways are trans women discriminated against Glorianny? Are they discriminated against more than trans men?

Iam64

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.
I’m also still irritated that women who support women are dismissed as not being well informed enough to toe the activist line

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.

I wonder just how many transwomen have gone through the (at the time) possibly scary and a tad traumatic experience of their first period; or suffered the fear - or joy - when they miss one and think they are pregnant; how many transwomen have given birth; how many already have toddlers and babies to care for; how many experience the menopause and all its associated miseries - apart from the symptoms associated with the fluctuation levels of hormones they may be taking?

It's a nonsense isn't?

Dickens

Iam64

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.
I’m also still irritated that women who support women are dismissed as not being well informed enough to toe the activist line

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.

I wonder just how many transwomen have gone through the (at the time) possibly scary and a tad traumatic experience of their first period; or suffered the fear - or joy - when they miss one and think they are pregnant; how many transwomen have given birth; how many already have toddlers and babies to care for; how many experience the menopause and all its associated miseries - apart from the symptoms associated with the fluctuation levels of hormones they may be taking?

It's a nonsense isn't?

For everyone of the experiences you have listed Dickens there is a woman somewhere who has not undergone that particular experience. Women who suffer from amenorrhea, women who are unable to have a child, women who have bodies that don't work the way some women's do. Are you going to deny them the right to be women because they don't share those experiences?

They will share an experience around those issues though , whether its lack of periods, heavy periods, menopause etc. Whether its childbirth, infertility or the decision not to have children, or the decision when to have children.

Nit picking again?

Smileless2012

Especially Iam when those who dismiss those women for not being well informed enough to toe the activist line appear to be less well informed, which could be why they do toe the activist line.

In what ways are trans women discriminated against Glorianny? Are they discriminated against more than trans men?

You only have to read these threads*Smileless2012*. But you could also count the lack of proper healthcare because of waiting lists- a discrimination that covers all transpeople.

I don't know why should I?
I'm not a statistician.

And yes others are discriminated against in healthcare.
Just because one group of people suffer discrimination doesn't mean others are free from it.

Galaxy

They will share an experience around those issues though , whether its lack of periods, heavy periods, menopause etc. Whether its childbirth, infertility or the decision not to have children, or the decision when to have children.

No they won't a woman with amenorrhea doesn't have periods.
An infertile woman will not have children unless she seeks medical intervention. So she will never experience giving birth.
I've never had a miscarriage it would be very wrong of me to claim I share that experience with other women when I obviously don't.

Rosie51

Seriously Glorianny you think Alex Drummond, lesbian transwoman is discriminated against because of being perceived as a woman?

How would I know? Probably not , but then would this woman???

That was my point they will all share experiences related to their biology it might be heavy periods or no periods but both are due to an issue with their female biology. I have had a miscarriage and given birth and for a long time thought I didn't want to have children, they were all linked to my biology, the decision whether to have children was by the nature of my female biology one I couldn't delay for too long.

Most females XX chromosomes will experience menstruation and menopause. Many will become pregnant, give birth and breast feed.
Males XY chromosomes won't experience any of the above and that includes transwoman.

Glorianny

Galaxy

They will share an experience around those issues though , whether its lack of periods, heavy periods, menopause etc. Whether its childbirth, infertility or the decision not to have children, or the decision when to have children.

No they won't a woman with amenorrhea doesn't have periods.
An infertile woman will not have children unless she seeks medical intervention. So she will never experience giving birth.
I've never had a miscarriage it would be very wrong of me to claim I share that experience with other women when I obviously don't.

But 100% of transwomen will never experience any of those female experiences. There is absolutely zero overlap on exclusively female bodily functions.

For everyone of the experiences you have listed Dickens there is a woman somewhere who has not undergone that particular experience. Women who suffer from amenorrhea, women who are unable to have a child, women who have bodies that don't work the way some women's do. Are you going to deny them the right to be women because they don't share those experiences
The vast majority of women will have some of those experiences. All women will have gone through a female puberty even if periods are then absent for a time. Usually amenorrhea can be treated, although prolonged amenorrhea may cause an early menopause. No transwoman will ever experience a female puberty or a female menopause.

AGAA4

Most females XX chromosomes will experience menstruation and menopause. Many will become pregnant, give birth and breast feed.
Males XY chromosomes won't experience any of the above and that includes transwoman.

So what has that to do with everyday discrimination? I don't think anyone has ever checked what my chromosomes were before deciding to treat me differently.

Secondary amenorrhea is more common than primary amenorrhea, and affects 3–5% of adult women. Secondary amenorrhea occurs when there is no natural cause, such as pregnancy, but is caused by other factors, such as medications or medical conditions
Are we discounting women who haven't shared the experience of menstruation?
Most and many is not all.

No. The point is that males can never experience any of those things.

Now Glorianny you're just being silly.
Biological males can never be biological females. End of.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Galaxy

They will share an experience around those issues though , whether its lack of periods, heavy periods, menopause etc. Whether its childbirth, infertility or the decision not to have children, or the decision when to have children.

No they won't a woman with amenorrhea doesn't have periods.
An infertile woman will not have children unless she seeks medical intervention. So she will never experience giving birth.
I've never had a miscarriage it would be very wrong of me to claim I share that experience with other women when I obviously don't.

But 100% of transwomen will never experience any of those female experiences. There is absolutely zero overlap on exclusively female bodily functions.

For everyone of the experiences you have listed Dickens there is a woman somewhere who has not undergone that particular experience. Women who suffer from amenorrhea, women who are unable to have a child, women who have bodies that don't work the way some women's do. Are you going to deny them the right to be women because they don't share those experiences
The vast majority of women will have some of those experiences. All women will have gone through a female puberty even if periods are then absent for a time. Usually amenorrhea can be treated, although prolonged amenorrhea may cause an early menopause. No transwoman will ever experience a female puberty or a female menopause.

But there is not one experience that all women share or that they experience in the same way.
A few women do not go through puberty without medical intervention, if they go without that attention are they then not women?
So all these assertions about a woman's experiences apply to some women, not all women.
Except for the fact that they will sometimes experience discrimination because they are judged to be a woman, and so will a transwoman.

3 - 5 % of women never menstruate which means that at least 95% do so not just some women but most menstruate.

Waiting lists affecting health care are affecting everyone Glorianny, not just those who are trans so it's wrong to suggest that they are being discriminated against in terms of health care, because they are trans.

There is one thing that all women share and that is being a woman, an adult female. No one is saying that all women experience the same things but what women do experience by virtue of the their biological sex, trans women never will because they are not women.

All this sidetracking just backs up the truth that a woman (AHF) is still a woman if she does all or none of the things mentioned, whether or not she needs assistance.
A male is not a woman and never will be, whatever medical intervention he opts for.

Glorianny

Doodledog

Leaving the discriminatory behaviour of having a woman be the one to have to move to accommodate a male, why is it that you think that no-one should share a changing room?

The woman is not moving "to accommodate a male". The exact same process would apply if another woman in the refuge had connections with her abuser. She is moved away from an environment where her abuser could make contact through a third party. Many women need to be moved because relatives or friends of her abuser leak her whereabouts to him.

Why should anyone have to undress in front of another person whatever the sex and gender of that person?

Ok. I should have known that my comment about how a male might be connected to her abuser would be pounced on for a Gotcha. I would say that the new applicant should be the one to move, but leaving that aside, what if there were no connection, but the woman in what she felt was a sad refuge was scared by having a male - any male - on the premises? Should she still be the one to move?

I would prefer not to undress in front of others, but I wouldn't feel unsafe doing so in front of women. I might feel unsafe in front of males (as well as uncomfortable), and would be very unhappy at the thought of a teenage girl finding herself in that situation. I don't care about their so-called 'gender'. The fact that someone is male would make me uncomfortable in those circumstances. Regardless of my feelings, however, the reason we have routinely separated men and women when undressing has always been for reasons of safety for the women. Men may also feel uncomfortable undressing in front of women, but they are rarely at risk from them.

Glorianny

Dickens

Iam64

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.
I’m also still irritated that women who support women are dismissed as not being well informed enough to toe the activist line

This insistence in repeating that trans women share the same experiences as women is simply wrong. It diminishes our lived experience to make comparisons that don’t exist.

I wonder just how many transwomen have gone through the (at the time) possibly scary and a tad traumatic experience of their first period; or suffered the fear - or joy - when they miss one and think they are pregnant; how many transwomen have given birth; how many already have toddlers and babies to care for; how many experience the menopause and all its associated miseries - apart from the symptoms associated with the fluctuation levels of hormones they may be taking?

It's a nonsense isn't?

For everyone of the experiences you have listed Dickens there is a woman somewhere who has not undergone that particular experience. Women who suffer from amenorrhea, women who are unable to have a child, women who have bodies that don't work the way some women's do. Are you going to deny them the right to be women because they don't share those experiences?

I was waiting for you to tell me the bleedin' obvious Glorianny.

Of course there are women who don't experience some of those biological events - or even all of them. But unless they are among the small minority of those born with ambiguous genitalia or DSD, they are still biologically women. Men are sometimes infertile, or they have undescended testes, but they are still men.

... and, of course, you had to add this bit, right?

Are you going to deny them the right to be women because they don't share those experiences?

If you want to nit-pick the minutiae down to the miniscule details, go ahead. But generally speaking the majority of women experience at least some or all of those biological events in their life, and if they don't, then they are simply women who don't.

It doesn't alter the basic premise that I do not believe a man can become a woman on the basis of how he feels about himself. He is and will always be a transwoman.