NHS U turn on trans terminology

Aveline

Thank goodness for Doodledog. She says it all!

Yes👏👏👏

Thank goodness for Doodledog. She says it all!

It would be terribly bad manners to enquire of any person what their genitals or breasts look like!

Of course it would, but the only poster to keep on (and on) about 'checking what's in someone's pants' is Glorianny. The rest of us just get on with things, and push for legislation that does not give anyone who wants it automatic access to spaces where women are vulnerable, whether that is a prison, a women's hospital ward, DV hostel, a changing room or a Ladies loo upstairs and along the corridor from the busy part of a venue.

Some of those places have criteria for entry so it is easy to check the sex of anyone trying to get into a women's ward in a hospital, a women's jail, but others are more public. In the case of public loos there have always been transwomen who just come in, pee, wash their hands, adjust their lipstick, check their hair and leave. Or in shops they have tried on clothes in a single cubicle and left. No issues there. What is a problem is when men use self-id to insist on entry in order to make women feel uncomfortable, and lurk outside of private cubicles or watch women and girls undressing in public ones. Or famously insisting on being housed in women's prisons after committing sex crimes. Or infiltrating the WI, lesbian dating events or La Leche, ensuring that there are no corners of the world that women can call their own.

It is also a problem when Ladies' loos are colonised as 'Unisex' and also incorporate disabled and baby-changing provision for both sexes. Women take longer in the loo than men, as we can't just unzip and pee, and having extra people in there whilst the Gents has fewer is idiotic, and there are times when it is unsafe for males to be in the Ladies, such as when it is dark, when the loo is remote and when it is quiet. The same is true of changing rooms in swimming baths, and potentially in shops. A man in there is likely to make women feel awkward, and let's not pretend that there are no exhibitionists doing it for the power it gives them.

Women's awards and shortlists exist for a reason. Usually because without them men win all the prizes. The male way of doing things is often the default, and the standard by which the thing is judged. Female poets, for instance, tend to have a different approach - women use language differently, and have different life experiences for their poems to draw on. When male poets say they 'identify' as women they reduce the chances of female voices getting a platform, and the same is true of painters, singers, novelists and so on. Men pushing into women's categories is silencing women - not just the artists themselves, but pushing the female perspective back in its box - the box that made some women writers use male pen names to be taken seriously.

There are so many examples, and none of them are about 'phobia' or man-hating, or anything other than wanting women to be able to have spaces (real or conceptual) to call our own.

Caleo

Dickens wrote:
"But mostly it's unimportant because it's not the point at issue. It's not whether a woman looks more like a man - it's whether that person is a man."

It would be terribly bad manners to enquire of any person what their genitals or breasts look like!

Exactly Dickens.

Caleo
It is worse than terribly bad manners to pretend/lie that you are something you are not, in order to get access to somewhere where you shouldn’t be.
That applies whether you are trans or not.
e.g. if I were to gain access to your house or your bank account by pretending to be you or pretending that I am a meter reader etc.

Or would you support that pretence?

Dickens wrote:
"But mostly it's unimportant because it's not the point at issue. It's not whether a woman looks more like a man - it's whether that person is a man."

It would be terribly bad manners to enquire of any person what their genitals or breasts look like!

"It's a power game" that's exactly how I perceive it, there is no reason for a trans woman to be present where mothers are getting to grips with breast feeding, for some women this can be an anxious time in their life, it's not always a smooth transition. Would they, this minority of trans women who've never thrown off that male entitlement, they can't have done to even consider how their presence may affect women who would want help with bf, an intimate, for some private, but always a women only experience. I suspect not! because this minority of trans women always want to trounce and in some situations cower women. One upmanship is king!

Iam64

TerriBull

Small steps, but I'm not entirely sure we've turned the corner completely. La Leche League an organisation many will have heard of, set up to help new mothers establish breast feeding, are being bullied to allow trans women to enter their domain. Are there no women only places this tiny minority, but ever so loud and entitled people won't seek to infiltrate. Some women for all manner of issues, feeling intimidated, modesty, religious reasons, are not going to feel happy about having a man present.

I read about this earlier today. It’s just awful. I’m struggling to find the words to express the level of anger this raises in me. I’m absolutely in agreement with TerriBull - some women for all manner of issues, feeling intimidated, modesty, religious reasons are not going to feel happy about having a man present
Many of the more difficult to reach young mothers are very shy about breast feeding. Let’s put another hurdle in the way

It is pure misogynistic bullying of women by men when women may be feeling apprehensive and vulnerable.

I hope the answer is a firm and loud NO
It's time we shouted this loud and clear.

Sorry for typos - hope that makes sense.

It encapsulates the situation very well. Men cannot breastfeed (or chestfeed, come to that). A group designed to encourage and promote breastfeeding can only be for women therefore. So why to transwomen want to be there? It can only be as a powered game - a way of saying that women can have nothing for ourselves- or to fuel an autogynephile fantasy and force women to take part in a fetish. It’s not about ‘feeling like’ a woman (whatever that means). It’s self-gratification or misogyny- it has to be one or the other.

TerriBull

Small steps, but I'm not entirely sure we've turned the corner completely. La Leche League an organisation many will have heard of, set up to help new mothers establish breast feeding, are being bullied to allow trans women to enter their domain. Are there no women only places this tiny minority, but ever so loud and entitled people won't seek to infiltrate. Some women for all manner of issues, feeling intimidated, modesty, religious reasons, are not going to feel happy about having a man present.

I read about this earlier today. It’s just awful. I’m struggling to find the words to express the level of anger this raises in me. I’m absolutely in agreement with TerriBull - some women for all manner of issues, feeling intimidated, modesty, religious reasons are not going to feel happy about having a man present
Many of the more difficult to reach young mothers are very shy about breast feeding. Let’s put another hurdle in the way

Callistemon21

^But mostly it's unimportant because it's not the point at issue. It's not whether a woman looks more like a man - it's whether that person is a man.^

Precisely.

Exactly-
and I still think it’s weird if Glorianny spends her holiday time trying to spot trans.

But mostly it's unimportant because it's not the point at issue. It's not whether a woman looks more like a man - it's whether that person is a man.

Precisely.

I still don't know how you are aware of anyone's sex. I've just been on holiday.When I was people watching I started trying to spot women who were not particularly feminine in appearance There were many. I think they were women but I really don't know for certain.

Glorianny

Women who are "not particularly feminine" have existed for centuries - as have men who are not particularly masculine.

That might matter to some, but to most of us on here - I don't believe it does. It's unimportant - certainly for me because I don't expect anyone to conform to any particular stereotype.

But mostly it's unimportant because it's not the point at issue. It's not whether a woman looks more like a man - it's whether that person is a man.

Small steps, but I'm not entirely sure we've turned the corner completely. La Leche League an organisation many will have heard of, set up to help new mothers establish breast feeding, are being bullied to allow trans women to enter their domain. Are there no women only places this tiny minority, but ever so loud and entitled people won't seek to infiltrate. Some women for all manner of issues, feeling intimidated, modesty, religious reasons, are not going to feel happy about having a man present.

Bump

Common sense at last.👍

Beautifully and simply put Doodledog - and absolutely right.

Wyllow3

The trans woman I know doesn't "pretend" to be the opposite sex, she lives a life as a woman who has realised she had always felt she belonged as a woman gender wise.

Yes - she lives a quiet non political life (she's a Quaker, like me) no time for TRA's,

and if she were to be ill in hospital I hope she would be able to be called by her chosen first name. We are all asked, and all given the dignity to be addressed as best suits us especially when vulnerable.

She doesn't, of course insist I be a cis woman in order to prove anything. I dont feel threatened or demand I change who I am.

I'm sure that's the case, Willow, and wish your friend well. Of course everyone should be able to choose the name they are called - in hospital or anywhere else.

Unfortunately, not all transwomen are like your friend, however, and some are dangerous to women, including those who use the cover of self-id to gain access to our spaces. I am sincere in my sympathy for people who are unable to live as they would prefer because of bad actors, but unfortunately criminals of all types are responsible for the need for rules that the innocent must obey, even when they make us uncomfortable or unhappy.

The trans woman I know doesn't "pretend" to be the opposite sex, she lives a life as a woman who has realised she had always felt she belonged as a woman gender wise.

Yes - she lives a quiet non political life (she's a Quaker, like me) no time for TRA's,

and if she were to be ill in hospital I hope she would be able to be called by her chosen first name. We are all asked, and all given the dignity to be addressed as best suits us especially when vulnerable.

She doesn't, of course insist I be a cis woman in order to prove anything. I dont feel threatened or demand I change who I am.

You’ll be accused of ‘demanding’ answers soon, which is ironic from someone claiming to have always seen debate as important for women. Debate can’t happen without answers to questions from participants on both ‘sides’.

Well I'm still waiting for Glorianny to address the points I raised in my post of Wed 01-May-24 17:25:30. As so often, when it gets too difficult Glorianny just ducks the question. I just want to know how these centralised computers know that John Smith sex marker M has a cervix. It's not difficult, it's a straightforward question, but as usual, answer comes there none!!!

I remember the tall muscular friend too. And the women who are regularly evicted from public lavatories for being 'masculine looking'. As I've said before, I have never heard of this other than in your posts - obviously that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but if it were usual I would surely have at least heard of a friend of a friend having it happen, or seeing it happen to someone else.

It's not we who keep asking about how you can tell who is male or female with routine references to 'what is in their pants'. We have said over and over that what we want is for males not to have a right to be in women's spaces, so that they can be asked to leave without fuss if they are making women and girls feel uncomfortable. We have also said over and over that we are not transphobic, but we don't want to share our spaces with men simply because they have seized what they and their 'allies' see as a right to be there, and have no right to ask for them to be evicted.

Generally, a transwoman who just wants to use the loo will be able to do so, as the vast majority of people won't be scrutinising people in the queue for the Ladies. Why would we do that?

Glorianny

Perhaps I just notice more people whose sex is indeterminable. It's much easier to say you can tell than to admit there is a wide variety in appearance which makes things difficult. Close your eyes and pretend they aren't there and sex is easy to spot.

No it just seems you’re fixated on this whereas I’m not. But as you say, if you’re people watching, you can’t tell. Some of us have the skill you lack.
I still remember hearing about the tall, strong, muscular, deep voiced friend -I don’t classify my friends by their size, depth of voice or muscularity.
Whether or not someone is pretending to be the opposite sex only matters when they are using their attempt at being a different sex for misleading or harming others.
I keep saying this.

Well yes of course sex matters to some in a variety of circumstances.

Doodledog

It really doesn't bother me whether someone looks like a man or a woman. It rarely matters. It is only when women are vulnerable that we need to know that we are in single sex company, unless there are religious or cultural reasons why a woman shouldn't be touched intimately by a man unless there is danger to life if she is not.

As I'm not obsessive about it all, I don't go around 'noticing' who looks male and who looks traditionally feminine - I don't care. I do care about vulnerable women, and about language. I care about getting statistics right for sociological reasons. I care about women having rights to things like awards that remain open to women only.

I certainly don't go around with my eyes closed though . What a strange idea.

I never used to, but the assertions on GN that it is easy to tell have set me looking more carefully and I find it isn't.
And apparently it matters to some.