Gransnet forums

News & politics

Multiple stabbings in London

(118 Posts)
maddyone Tue 30-Apr-24 09:43:58

It’s just been reported that an incident has occurred in London where multiple people have been stabbed, including two policemen. The ‘suspect’ was wielding a sword apparently. It’s reportedly a white male who is 36 years old. Not much more is known at present. Let’s hope none of the injured people are seriously hurt.

Cossy Sun 05-May-24 16:30:18

Eloethan

"Care in the Community" was, in my opinion, a rather misguided notion. Psychiatric hospitals were criticised for creating instutionalisation - and that was a valid criticism I think - but that issue could have been addressed rather than closing virtually all psychiatric facilities.

Obviously there are people with mental health issues that do not threaten the safety of other people, and, provided enough support is available, perhaps care in the community is more appropriate. However, for people who have exhibited paranoid thoughts, accompanied by threatening behaviour or actual violence, I think the old system was better.

Large psychiatric institutions ensured that when people were at crisis point they could be kept safe in hospital where their state of mind could be properly assessed and monitored, with a view to leaving hospital once their condition was regulated. Some patients were regularly admitted and then, once it was deemed safe for them, and for the general public, to be discharged, they could return to society. Sometimes this required sectioning, but often patients were admitted on a voluntary basis.

A recent thread on Mumsnet demonstrated how many people were concerned about the number of people with severe mental health and/or addiction problems that are on the streets now - people wandering around shouting aggressively at anyone and everyone, people in near catatonic states, often with observable medical issues, such as leg ulcers, etc, etc. It seems there is no real help for these people now and their mental and physical health just keeps on deteriorating - causing them and the people around them - great distress, and sometimes danger.

"Community care" could not be a cheap alternative to in patient care - quite the opposite - but, in my view, it was seen as a way of reducing costs and making land and property available for sale to developers.

I completely agree. To be honest I see little evidence that any “care in the community” actually exists.

GrauntyHelen Sun 05-May-24 15:09:45

Sago we have them just not every officer and long may it be so !

missdeke Sun 05-May-24 13:54:14

Casdon

The thing is though missdeke, care in the community can only happen when somebody is known about and under the care of a service. Do you know if this man was?

I really don't know, my daughter only really knew him for a short time.

Casdon Sun 05-May-24 13:13:13

I agree Eloethan. The model of care has to change, the biggest issue is that because the service has been starved of funding for so long there aren’t the trained staff out there to do the roles that are needed, and it will take years to train more, because these aren’t jobs for the inexperienced. I’ve got the greatest of respect for community mental health teams, who are unsung heroes of the NHS. I take exception to people saying they have failed, when we don’t even know if they were involved with this man. If they were, there will doubtless be an inquiry to find out exactly what happened, but until then apportioning blame is wrong.

Wyllow3 Sun 05-May-24 13:13:05

The police used to allude to it, around the times when it was widely assumed 'they must be terrorists", and the trouble is people want to "understand" very badly, but I agree.

welbeck Sun 05-May-24 13:05:33

Joseann

I don't think we're allowed to say anything like that. Redbridge police have advised us not to.

exactly.
the matter is sub judice.
ignorance is no defence at law.
the strict liability rule is wide-ranging, case law shows it applies to social media.

Wyllow3 Sun 05-May-24 13:03:23

It has "reduced costs" almost to the point of non existent!

Eloethan Sun 05-May-24 12:56:20

"Care in the Community" was, in my opinion, a rather misguided notion. Psychiatric hospitals were criticised for creating instutionalisation - and that was a valid criticism I think - but that issue could have been addressed rather than closing virtually all psychiatric facilities.

Obviously there are people with mental health issues that do not threaten the safety of other people, and, provided enough support is available, perhaps care in the community is more appropriate. However, for people who have exhibited paranoid thoughts, accompanied by threatening behaviour or actual violence, I think the old system was better.

Large psychiatric institutions ensured that when people were at crisis point they could be kept safe in hospital where their state of mind could be properly assessed and monitored, with a view to leaving hospital once their condition was regulated. Some patients were regularly admitted and then, once it was deemed safe for them, and for the general public, to be discharged, they could return to society. Sometimes this required sectioning, but often patients were admitted on a voluntary basis.

A recent thread on Mumsnet demonstrated how many people were concerned about the number of people with severe mental health and/or addiction problems that are on the streets now - people wandering around shouting aggressively at anyone and everyone, people in near catatonic states, often with observable medical issues, such as leg ulcers, etc, etc. It seems there is no real help for these people now and their mental and physical health just keeps on deteriorating - causing them and the people around them - great distress, and sometimes danger.

"Community care" could not be a cheap alternative to in patient care - quite the opposite - but, in my view, it was seen as a way of reducing costs and making land and property available for sale to developers.

Wyllow3 Sun 05-May-24 12:00:18

Thanks for that clarification Joseann.

Wyllow3 Sun 05-May-24 11:58:39

In the past, police have referred to "known as to have been"....etc etc as regards a history of severe MH issues. Which they didn't, here. Sounds like he wasn't on the radar. Neighbours reported him as being quiet and keeping himself to himself.

Wondering why your information missdeke wasn't passed onto the British Embassy by army and they would have informed back home?

Joseann Sun 05-May-24 11:50:37

That was to missdeke.

Joseann Sun 05-May-24 11:49:37

I don't think we're allowed to say anything like that. Redbridge police have advised us not to.

Casdon Sun 05-May-24 11:46:53

The thing is though missdeke, care in the community can only happen when somebody is known about and under the care of a service. Do you know if this man was?

missdeke Sun 05-May-24 11:40:22

My daughter knows this man, she went to the Amazon for 6 weeks a couple of years ago with a large group of people. He was showing abnormal behaviour then, chasing indigenous children with knives etc. The army had to be called to the camp to remove him. My daughter said it was really unnerving being 5 days from civilisation with him around.

Care in the community is all very well but more needs to be done to help these people and ensure that they take their medication regularly.

Sarnia Thu 02-May-24 14:25:43

Oreo

tickingbird

They did taser him eventually but couldn’t get close enough to him.

In that case how come two police officers need surgery?

Not all police officers carry tasers so perhaps the injured officers had no way to disarm him.

Rosie51 Thu 02-May-24 00:01:56

I really don't like Khan, I think he's been a disaster for London, but in no way is he responsible for this attack. For goodness' sake let's keep this real.

Wyllow3 Wed 01-May-24 23:45:44

Casdon

I just saw that, he has been charged with murder, two counts of attempted murder, two counts of grievous bodily harm, aggravated burglary and possession of a bladed article. More may come out later but so far there’s no mention of him being under the care of Mental Health Services or being known to the police previously, which makes it very difficult to see how it could have been prevented.

No, I don't see how it could have been prevented. Is this kind of attack, actually more frequent?
(ie not associated with a race attack or a terrorist attack?) But we have very few details as yet.
We don't know if it's M Health related. BTW, there has been a lot of speculation about schizophrenia but there are other sorts or psychotic or sociopathic behaviour that could lead to this and often undiagnosed as a person can "act normal" until something "breaks".

I cant see how blaming Khan is relevant at all?

Rosie51 Wed 01-May-24 22:52:28

Heartbreaking. He looked younger than his age, an innocent boy whose life was cruelly cut short. How his family will carry on after this abomination I don't know. What a waste of a young, innocent life sad

Callistemon21 Wed 01-May-24 22:47:36

It is becoming a regular tragic occurrence, yet another evening when the news brings such sorrow.

My thoughts are with his family, with the parents, families and friends of all those lost in this senseless way.

Joseann Wed 01-May-24 22:43:48

Daniel joined Bancroft's at seven years old and quickly became a core member of our community. He was a true scholar, demonstrating commendable dedication to his academic pursuits. His positive nature and gentle character will leave a lasting impact on us. Losing such a young pupil is something we will always struggle to come to terms with.
We are now doing all we can to support our entire community through this most painful situation. Our thoughts and deepest sympathies are with Daniel's family during this incredibly difficult time.
Bancroft's

The number of pupils, teachers, parents, and grandparents at this school affected for life by this cruel act will run into thousands. Tonight my thoughts are with them, the perpetrator of the crime is not worthy of discussion.

Callistemon21 Wed 01-May-24 22:25:12

Life imprisonment should mean life.

A sad note: the young boy who was killed, Daniel Anjorin, according to his teachers a studious and model pupil, attended the same school where Grace O'Malley-Kumar was a former pupil.

""He was a true scholar, demonstrating commendable dedication to his academic pursuits. His positive nature and gentle character will leave a lasting impact on us," the school said.

Casdon Wed 01-May-24 21:31:06

I just saw that, he has been charged with murder, two counts of attempted murder, two counts of grievous bodily harm, aggravated burglary and possession of a bladed article. More may come out later but so far there’s no mention of him being under the care of Mental Health Services or being known to the police previously, which makes it very difficult to see how it could have been prevented.

Jaxjacky Wed 01-May-24 21:24:33

A man, dual Spanish/Brazilian national has been charged, Sky news.

V3ra Wed 01-May-24 12:12:45

Tazers are only issued to specially trained officers. They re not just carried around as a matter of routine because they are only required on special occasions.

My son is taser trained, he carries one every day.
They never know when a "special occasion" will arise and he laughed when I asked him once if he went back to the station to fetch it 🤦😂

Oreo Wed 01-May-24 11:53:18

That’s the facts so far Casdon
What will come to light is another matter.