Left, right, left, right!

Speaking on GB News, former Conservative defence secretary Michael Portillo said the plans seemed to have been produced “like a rabbit it out of a hat”, while Lord Dannatt, former chief of the general staff, told the Guardian they were “bonkers.”

Yes - here is report

uk.news.yahoo.com/minister-rejected-tory-plans-national-145925731.html

gives "funding" details, too.

The defence secretary has already said these proposals aren't workable, so it's not realistic either.

The three million (nearly) of under 25s who are not in education, apprenticeships, or working does worry me though, and I can’t hear any party proposing a realistic solution to this. The problem is, it seems to me, that these young people could easily fall into the habit of not working and this is not healthy for them, nor the rest of us.

Casdon

I’didn’t mean you personally were throwing stones maddyone, apologies if it came across that I did. I was making a general point that it’s easy to sit here as an older person and blame the ills of society on other people, but how many of us are doing our bit ourselves.

Thank you Casdon, and I apologise too for jumping to conclusions

National service was abolished in the late 1950s because the armed forces were tired of training conscripts how had little interest in a military career and wanted out after 2 years, and the government wanted small, professional forces. It was essential when he had an empire, Germany to occupy and to back fill for soldiers sent oveseas, but NS was deemed irrelevant and expensive when it was axed in 1960.

I’didn’t mean you personally were throwing stones maddyone, apologies if it came across that I did. I was making a general point that it’s easy to sit here as an older person and blame the ills of society on other people, but how many of us are doing our bit ourselves.

what more we could do

The vast majority of pensioners have spent a lifetime working and paying taxes. They do not need to do more if they do not wish to. Many will have health conditions/problems after the age of 65 and as they age, and pass 70, many more will develop health conditions. Of my own group of friends who are aged 65 and over, only two have no health conditions at all. Four have had hip replacements. It’s not easy to do voluntarily work if you’re in pain all the time. Another three have cancer (one has already died of cancer.) Another has spinal problems, as have I, myself. It is easy to volunteer if you are in good health, not so easy, if you’re not.

I’m not throwing stones at young people Casdon. I already said that the vast majority of younger people are fine, getting on with their lives, working, studying or whatever. What I did say is that there are nearly three million under 25s who are not in education, nor apprenticeships, nor working. They are economically inactive. This is not throwing stones at young people, it is a fact. I know that because I checked the numbers. Please do not accuse me of throwing stones at young people because I have stated a clear fact, that certainly worries me, even if it does not worry or concern you.

maddyone

I think that since people are having to work longer, with yet even longer now in sight, the ready supply of newly retired people who volunteer for charitable work will become fewer. By the time people can’t retire till they’re 70, I think charitable work by the retired will largely dry up. I know a number of people who did charitable work when they retired at 60-65, but those same people in their 70s are busy having hip replacements and other conditions treated.

It’s not the case yet though, according to the government again., the average age of exit from the labour market has decreased for both males and females over the past year. In 2022, the average age of exit for men was aged 65.4 years, decreasing by 0.1 years to 65.3 years in 2023, this is the same as the male average age of exit in 2019 and 2020.
I just think it’s very easy for our age group to throw stones at the younger generations, when we should be looking at ourselves a bit more and thinking what more could we do?

Taking 'facts' about a particular demographic and extrapolating from that to suggest that all members of that demographic think/feel/behave the same is the definition of prejudice. That applies whether you are talking about the young, the old, the police, dog owners or circus performers.

IMO there is nothing wrong with a society that provides - however patchily - a lot for its members (eg education, health, defence, law enforcement etc) asking for something back. That could be in the form of taxes, or it could be in the form of giving time or expertise for the benefit of that society. I see no reason why that expectation should fall exclusively on the shoulders of a particular age group, particularly when they are already discriminated against in many ways.

Casdon, I was surprised to learn that only half of my age group volunteer. I do, and many of my friends do, so perhaps my views are a little distorted. However, I would suggest that many of us also do our part to keep the country ticking over by delivering childcare, enabling our sons and daughters to work.
Perhaps that's our community service!

VioletSky

I don't know if you have read the whole thread Maddyone but there are examples of ageism throughout

I did already explain the difference between what is ageism and what isn't

I must doff my cap to your superior knowledge VS.

I think that since people are having to work longer, with yet even longer now in sight, the ready supply of newly retired people who volunteer for charitable work will become fewer. By the time people can’t retire till they’re 70, I think charitable work by the retired will largely dry up. I know a number of people who did charitable work when they retired at 60-65, but those same people in their 70s are busy having hip replacements and other conditions treated.

It’s not as high as you’d think Callistemon21. According to the government figures, in 2021/22 rates of informal volunteering at least once a year were highest for those aged 65-74 (52%). Rates for this age group were higher than for those aged 16-24 (38%), 25-34 (42%) and 75+ (44%).
So 48% of 65-74s don’t volunteer even once a year, which I think is quite surprising.

I don't know if you have read the whole thread Maddyone but there are examples of ageism throughout

I did already explain the difference between what is ageism and what isn't

making sweeping generalisations about the under 25s is also ageism

Near.y three million under 25s are not in education, apprenticeship, nor are they working.
This is not ageism.
This is a fact!

Casdon

LizzieDrip

no doubt the pensioners, who have been economically active all their lives, will be blamed because there are too many of them and they’re expensive

I agree with this point maddyone. I’m also sick of hearing that ‘old people’ …
1) voted for Brexit
2) will agree with NS
3) vote Conservative
4) don’t pay tax

Ageism is a genuine problem in this country!

I can’t help thinking that if a similar principle was applied to older people though, and we all had to volunteer by mandate, there would be outrage. Why though, the vast majority are still capable of contributing to society.

I think they do.

The charity sector would sink without a ready supply of newly retired people.

In fact, the problem now is that many volunteers are in their 80s and even 90s and newer recruits are hard to find.

LizzieDrip

^no doubt the pensioners, who have been economically active all their lives, will be blamed because there are too many of them and they’re expensive^

I agree with this point maddyone. I’m also sick of hearing that ‘old people’ …
1) voted for Brexit
2) will agree with NS
3) vote Conservative
4) don’t pay tax

Ageism is a genuine problem in this country!

I can’t help thinking that if a similar principle was applied to older people though, and we all had to volunteer by mandate, there would be outrage. Why though, the vast majority are still capable of contributing to society.

However, some kind of community service programme is worth looking at again

I think it was mentioned on this thread or the other one that these programmes are in existence but are run by charities so the Government could help by contributing and supporting these.

The Armed Services, I am sure, want to train recruits properly and the other services do too, not have a constant annual supply of green recruits who then leave after their year is up.

I doubt that Armed Service chiefs, Fire Chiefs, Police chiefs would want to encourage this kind of half-baked scheme

People should be aware that "ageism" isn't confined to older people... Making sweeping generalisations about under 25s is also ageism

Totally agree 👏👏👏

I thought this was a good idea when I first heard about it yesterday, as something needs to be done to get young people away from crime and gangs( admittedly this is only a problem in some urban areas), but the whole scheme is a half baked half hearted waste of time. Only 30,000 18 year olds will be offered a placement in the armed forces and the others will be expected to 25 days a year community service, or face criminal sanctions. I would much rather have had the old West German system where 18-22 year old men had to 14 months in the armed forces or 24 months community service than this scheme. Even Nigel Farage considers Rishi's scheme half baked and a waste of time, where you'd expect him to be in favour.
Seriously, Rishi's national service scheme won't happen as he won't be in power in 6 weeks time. However, some kind of community service programme is worth looking at again.

Here is something we can do... We can acknowledge that a specific age group generated a certain set of data that is problematic

Here is what we can't do... Make sweeping generalisations or discriminate against a group of people based in preconceived ideas

People should be aware that "ageism" isn't confined to older people... Making sweeping generalisations about under 25s is also ageism

Wyllow3

Since the army is to choose who they will take:

The idea they will choose those some posters feel need "sorting out"?

which they might or might not, but to imagine that our overstretched social, medical and fire services can somehow "discipline" the "rejects" youngsters is appalling given the strain on those services.

The Army is not the only armed force in this country.

The Armed Forces will only want to take those in whom it sees some potential.
One year is not enough to make much difference, particularly if the aim is to teach skills which will be useful to both the services and to the young person for their future.

Not sure what it has to do with ageism though