Sunak V Starmer

you’re not your

Katie590 & GSM I presume your both talking from experience?

I imagine there’s a lot of truth in it.

some schools are no better than a zoo
Katie590

What a horrible comment!

LizzieDrip

^You cannot force anyone to teach, Nurse, or join any of the public service jobs, unless there is a vocation to do so^
Freya5

My experience in teacher training shows that many people are keen to enter the teaching profession. We had no shortage of applicants for teacher training courses, of various routes, with many being over-subscribed.

[Being pedantic here but I prefer to call it a profession, not a ‘vocation’.]

There is a very high drop out because the discipline is too poor and stress levels are too high, some schools are no better than a zoo
You are faced with a class of 30 where a significant number are disruptive, don’t want to learn and there is nothing you can do about it.

Freya5

LizzieDrip

I think we all know this will not be the demise of the independent school. Yes, a small number may ‘go under’ for a variety of reasons, and those children will be welcomed into state schools.

Independent school fees have risen well above inflation for the past 10 years, without any intervention from a Labour government. Has there been an exodus of children leaving private education and ‘overwhelming’ the state sector. Not that I’ve noticed - and I’ve only recently retired from the state sector.

They may be welcome, into an overcrowded, underfunded state sector. Oh I forgot Starmer is going to recruit an extra 6,500 teachers, from where I would like to know. You cannot force anyone to teach, Nurse, or join any of the public service jobs, unless their is a vocation to do so. You need that to work in the NHS or teaching profeesions. Or will he bribe them with pay offers and get people in just for the money, that may work for a while, but can't see staff staying for 30 40 years as my generation did, if they have no feel for the work.

I’d imagine a lot of the teachers recruited will be returners. 40,000 left teaching just in the academic year 2021/22. There will definitely be new hope for teachers under a Labour government, I have quite a few in my family, and they can’t wait for change. Hundreds of thousands have also left the NHS in the last few years.

Sarnia Have you got your figures right? VAT of £1800 per month? That represents a gross monthly payment of £10,800 per month. That is to say £ 129,600 pa. They must be going to Eton or Harrow.

MaizieD have you heard of the ancient universities? Public schools provided candidates to study there. The State was uninvolved although I guess the Church helped.
There was therefore a benefit to society as a whole. We are going back a very long time.
In more recent times, private schools are saving the State money by educating students who would otherwise cost £6k annually in primary and £8k in secondary.

You cannot force anyone to teach, Nurse, or join any of the public service jobs, unless there is a vocation to do so
Freya5

My experience in teacher training shows that many people are keen to enter the teaching profession. We had no shortage of applicants for teacher training courses, of various routes, with many being over-subscribed.

[Being pedantic here but I prefer to call it a profession, not a ‘vocation’.]

The share of pupils across the UK in private schools has remained around 6–7% for at least the last 20 years (or about 560,000–570,000 pupils in England). This has occurred despite a 20% real-terms increase in average private school fees since 2010 and a 55% rise since 2003

From a 2023 report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

LizzieDrip

I think we all know this will not be the demise of the independent school. Yes, a small number may ‘go under’ for a variety of reasons, and those children will be welcomed into state schools.

Independent school fees have risen well above inflation for the past 10 years, without any intervention from a Labour government. Has there been an exodus of children leaving private education and ‘overwhelming’ the state sector. Not that I’ve noticed - and I’ve only recently retired from the state sector.

They may be welcome, into an overcrowded, underfunded state sector. Oh I forgot Starmer is going to recruit an extra 6,500 teachers, from where I would like to know. You cannot force anyone to teach, Nurse, or join any of the public service jobs, unless their is a vocation to do so. You need that to work in the NHS or teaching profeesions. Or will he bribe them with pay offers and get people in just for the money, that may work for a while, but can't see staff staying for 30 40 years as my generation did, if they have no feel for the work.

I think we all know this will not be the demise of the independent school. Yes, a small number may ‘go under’ for a variety of reasons, and those children will be welcomed into state schools.

Independent school fees have risen well above inflation for the past 10 years, without any intervention from a Labour government. Has there been an exodus of children leaving private education and ‘overwhelming’ the state sector. Not that I’ve noticed - and I’ve only recently retired from the state sector.

ronib

When schools were set up by benefactors 400 years ago as in the case of the major schools private schools, the benefactors were not claiming tax relief as 400 years ago there wasn’t any.
The State has benefited greatly from not having had to fund education for hundreds of thousands of pupils for years and years.

I'm so intrigued by this latest flight of ronib fancy.

Do please explain to us how the state benefitted from not having to fund education for 'hundreds and thousands of pupils' for years and years?

Of course, latterly the state has been been overwhelmingly grateful that it hasn't had to pay the Eton fees for a very significant number of our country's leaders, I can see that, but do take us back further into history 😆

Most historical charitable bequests were made in the hope of shortening the bequeather's time in purgatory. Might not have been a tax avoidance measure, but still made with the prospect of a significant benefit to the bequeather.

ronib

Mollygo yes the wealthy will continue to have access to private education if not in the Uk then in schools overseas.

Status quo then. It’s isn’t going to be the public schools that are affected, it’s going to be the small, already struggling private schools, surely. I think we have to be realistic here about what the impact will actually be rather than pretending that this is the demise of independent schools.

Mollygo

Casdon

Private schools aren’t going to cease to exist as a result of this change either - it’s hardly the end of private schooling in the UK.

No. The wealthy will still be able to afford it.

And the schools will no doubt continue to offer scholarships, which is often part of the terms of their endowments.

Germanshepherdsmum

Here’s a story about the school Casdon. Sorry it’s from the DM - the Telegraph article is behind a paywall. It also emphasises that the fee-paying parents are ordinary people, not rich.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13486745/Private-school-one-pupils-special-needs-blames-Labours-VAT-policy-forcing-closure-headteacher-says-parents-unable-afford-fee-hike.html

But they are not exactly poor. The money spent on school fees could be spent on coaching if required, outings, books, etc and still some left for holidays for the whole family. To my mind many people send their children to private school because they they will meet a better class of child.

Sometimes not all the children in the same family can go to private school. Some of them will have to be state educated.

An old friend went to state school whilst her two brothers went to private school. Her mother expected her to leave school at 16 but the head teacher persuaded her to let my friend stay on to the 6th form. The parents then had to be persuaded to let her go into articles, which at that time had to be paid for. I suspect that this attitude would not prevail now.

When I met her, mid twenties, I was in articles and she had been a qualified ACA for a number of years. She went on to do great things. I didn't - not especially ambitious but was doing something (finally) that I enjoyed.

Mollygo yes the wealthy will continue to have access to private education if not in the Uk then in schools overseas.

Rude

Ahhh - so you are now going to suggest that charitable schools were set up specifically for the poor?

That was when they were real charities.

What happened in 1967 was a purely ideological and politically
motivated.

ronib No!

They don’t seem to have matured much beyond a 13 year old

You can say that again WW! In fact, even most 13 year olds today wouldn’t come out with such crass comments - I know my grandsons wouldn’t!

Casdon

Private schools aren’t going to cease to exist as a result of this change either - it’s hardly the end of private schooling in the UK.

No. The wealthy will still be able to afford it.

LizzieDrip are you being deliberately obtuse?

Private schools aren’t going to cease to exist as a result of this change either - it’s hardly the end of private schooling in the UK.

Really ronib comparing 400 years ago with today If we haven’t moved on since then, we really are in trouble!