Europe’s voting for the right just as we're turning left!

MaizieD

Dickens

Galaxy

The left have on the whole embraced identity politics and completely lost touch with those they purport to want to help. The idea of social class/poverty is not a regular feature of the discourse. They treat a large part of the electorate with disdain. They are losing many people like me who have been centre left all our lives.

You make a good point Galaxy.

I'm sorry, but if Galaxy's point is 'good', how come Comrade Corbyn's 'for the many not the few' turned off Labour voters in large numbers? It was hardly 'disdainful' of most of the electorate.

(I realise this isn't really the right thread for this)

I'm sorry, but if Galaxy's point is 'good', how come Comrade Corbyn's 'for the many not the few' turned off Labour voters in large numbers? It was hardly 'disdainful' of most of the electorate.

I think voters believed the many were those on benefits who had chosen to 'live off the State'. And immigrants. So "hard-working families" (to borrow from the Tories) didn't believe he meant them.

And even if he did, they were led to believe he'd bankrupt the country.

That was the impression I got.

And I think it is exacerbated by Ukraine.

MaizieD

Do you not think that my theory has any validity, Wwmk2?

Oh sorry I didn’t see that nipping in an out to the garden etc.

Yes!!

That is exactly what I’m getting at! And frankly find it bloody scary.

Do you not think that my theory has any validity, Wwmk2?

Dickens

I think the move to the Right is because of immigration, especially in Germany.

I doubt all are against it in principle - but people have the feeling that the EU doesn't have a grip on the situation and there's no real integrated plan for dealing with the problem. Some countries are taking more than their 'fair share'.

Merkel's gesture "we will cope" was magnanimous, but the reality is that those who are coping are not those who made the decisions. And there have been some atrocities in both Germany and France, they are rare, but they put people on their guard.

Immigrants have mostly a strong sense of tribal loyalty to their culture and their religion (understandably) - what some politicians and people don't understand is that those in the host country also have the same attachments, and when their culture changes rapidly, it unnerves them.

Immigration is now a fact of life, but it has to be dealt with pragmatically, and fairly. Not least for the sake of the immigrants themselves if there is to be peaceful co-existence.

It still doesn’t explain the willingness to vote for an out and out
fascist party. There are other parties who say they will control immigration.

Yes, immigration is certainly one factor but I don’t think it explains it entirely by any means.

I'm inclined to agree Galaxy, reading an article in The Guardian, the disaffection with Macron amongst the beleaguered working classes in France, is that he is perceived as lofty and appear to have little empathy with those who are struggling with the cost of living. I'm not sure what France's stance is with identity politics but issues such as those have been elevated to such prominence they mask so much of what is actually affecting the ordinary person and apart from resonating with a minority, the vast majority of the population have little interest. I thought the LGBT month of June had been toned down a little this year, it was so full on last year with constant announcements in M&S for example blasting out their support, I haven't noticed it quite so much. Although I gather Regents Street is still decked out in rainbow flags in the mode of an occupying force having taken over the country. The push for net zero, lack of housing and in some areas, unfettered immigration is the driving force that has catapulted the swing, in some European countries towards the right. Anyway, we need to give a new Labour administration a chance to see how they measure up, possibly they will have an eye towards Europe holding the thought that voters' loyalties can turn in a heartbeat.

Dickens

Galaxy

The left have on the whole embraced identity politics and completely lost touch with those they purport to want to help. The idea of social class/poverty is not a regular feature of the discourse. They treat a large part of the electorate with disdain. They are losing many people like me who have been centre left all our lives.

You make a good point Galaxy.

I'm sorry, but if Galaxy's point is 'good', how come Comrade Corbyn's 'for the many not the few' turned off Labour voters in large numbers? It was hardly 'disdainful' of most of the electorate.

(I realise this isn't really the right thread for this)

MaizieD

I acknowledge that immigration is a key factor, but without an economic system which exacerbates inequality and deprivation I think it would have been much harder to target immigrants as the ones who are to blame for deprivation and inequality.

Getting rid of immigrants will no more be the answer to people's problems than Brexit was in the UK, despite being promoted as such.

Economics is always a key driver of political change.

Getting rid of immigrants will no more be the answer to people's problems than Brexit was in the UK, despite being promoted as such.

As is proving to be the case. Because it was not the cause.

Galaxy

The left have on the whole embraced identity politics and completely lost touch with those they purport to want to help. The idea of social class/poverty is not a regular feature of the discourse. They treat a large part of the electorate with disdain. They are losing many people like me who have been centre left all our lives.

You make a good point Galaxy.

whitewavemarket apparently the AFD ( right wing party) won young voters through Tik-Tok . 16-17 year olds were allowedto vote

I acknowledge that immigration is a key factor, but without an economic system which exacerbates inequality and deprivation I think it would have been much harder to target immigrants as the ones who are to blame for deprivation and inequality.

Getting rid of immigrants will no more be the answer to people's problems than Brexit was in the UK, despite being promoted as such.

Economics is always a key driver of political change.

I think the move to the Right is because of immigration, especially in Germany.

I doubt all are against it in principle - but people have the feeling that the EU doesn't have a grip on the situation and there's no real integrated plan for dealing with the problem. Some countries are taking more than their 'fair share'.

Merkel's gesture "we will cope" was magnanimous, but the reality is that those who are coping are not those who made the decisions. And there have been some atrocities in both Germany and France, they are rare, but they put people on their guard.

Immigrants have mostly a strong sense of tribal loyalty to their culture and their religion (understandably) - what some politicians and people don't understand is that those in the host country also have the same attachments, and when their culture changes rapidly, it unnerves them.

Immigration is now a fact of life, but it has to be dealt with pragmatically, and fairly. Not least for the sake of the immigrants themselves if there is to be peaceful co-existence.

petra

MayBee70

If we were still in the EU we’d have some sort of control over this swing to the far right wouldn’t we? As it is we have no say in it even though it will affect us.

What control did we have when we were in the eu as to how other people voted?

Because we could have voted too? Couldn’t we?

But surely if it’s about injustices towards the poorer and hard working people getting a raw deal, a swing towards socialism would make more sense? If only we had a say in what happens in Europe these days

But 'socialism' equals 'communism' in the rhetoric of fighting to attract votes. The horror of the Soviet Union is all too close to us in Europe, both physically and temporally, so it is very easy to turn voters off socialism by equating it with the worst excesses of state control.

We also subscribe to an economic theory which was initially formulated by the Soviet born economist, Hayek. The title of his influential book, The Road to Serfdom, tells you his judgement of a 'socialist' economy. His views absolutely suited the non communist section of a world separated by an 'iron curtain', one part utterly repressive (and poor), the other liberal and wealthy.

The problem is that economics based on Hayek and his followers theories have created the culture in which much of Europe lives, wealth at the top of society and increasing relative or actual poverty at the middle to lower end.

Socialism cannot be the answer because of its strong association with communism, so right wing populism, which appears to offer much the same as socialism in many ways, is the only alternative to the system which is damaging people's lives.

Cold

The press seem to have decided on a narrative before the election of a shift to the right - however not all countries have followed this.

In Finland the left have made dramatic gains

In Sweden the far right "Swedish Democrat" party has dropped from 2nd biggest party to 4th - even the Greens beat them

... and in some countries they are still counting the votes

There is nothing more right-wing in this country than the media. The reportage I heard yesterday was stirring the pot again and people get so taken in by it.

Let's have some objective reporting please and not this constant anxiety inducing bias all the time.

In your eyes Whitewavemark2
Massive immigration added to any economic reasons mean the people want change.
We are a more tolerant nation here but even so people are ticked off with big numbers of legal and illegal immigrants.

Of course I considered it and yes I mean the people not the government.

None of it explains why on earth they are turning the clock back to the 30s

When you say Germany you mean the government and not the people.

Oooh, sarky.
Immigration on a massive scale seemed to be something you hadn’t considered.

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

Does anyone understand why German far right populism is flourishing?

The AFD - which is so fascist, that even Le Pen won’t have anything to do with them, and strong Nazi supporters has come second 😮😮.

I find this so bewildering, given their history!

What on earth are the Germans doing?

It’s the obvious reaction to Angela Merkel’s policy of ‘let them all come’ this is what it leads to, the rise of the right.

Thankyou for that in-depth and well thought out analysis.

My point is that there is something more going on than what you suggest.

I may be against a high level of immigration - Germany has never been against immigration because they understood that it expands their economy - but I would never vote for a Nazi party.

MayBee70

If we were still in the EU we’d have some sort of control over this swing to the far right wouldn’t we? As it is we have no say in it even though it will affect us.

What control did we have when we were in the eu as to how other people voted?

Whitewavemark2

Does anyone understand why German far right populism is flourishing?

The AFD - which is so fascist, that even Le Pen won’t have anything to do with them, and strong Nazi supporters has come second 😮😮.

I find this so bewildering, given their history!

What on earth are the Germans doing?

It’s the obvious reaction to Angela Merkel’s policy of ‘let them all come’ this is what it leads to, the rise of the right.

MayBee70

If we were still in the EU we’d have some sort of control over this swing to the far right wouldn’t we? As it is we have no say in it even though it will affect us.

No, we would have no control at all, what makes you think that?

Joseann

The impression I got from French friends yesterday, Urmstongran, wasn't one of any great surprise at Macron's actions. He is well known for making bold decisions, and this could be a clever one. They do actually respect his judgment.
French people I spoke with seem to be aware that a turn to the far right could be very dangerous, but they are also aware of the injustices towards the poorer, hard working nationals who they see as being overlooked and receiving a raw deal. The SMIC - the minimum wage - featured heavily in conversation because it offers workers no quality of life, especially when they see inactive people (including immigrants) receiving support on a plate.

I did have a little smile though when one friend said Monsieur Macron wants it all done and dusted by 14th July so everyone can let their hair down! Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité!

But surely if it’s about injustices towards the poorer and hard working people getting a raw deal, a swing towards socialism would make more sense? If only we had a say in what happens in Europe these days

Does anyone understand why German far right populism is flourishing?

The AFD - which is so fascist, that even Le Pen won’t have anything to do with them, and strong Nazi supporters has come second 😮😮.

I find this so bewildering, given their history!

What on earth are the Germans doing?