Two twelve year olds murder nineteen year old with machete

Chestnut

The BBC Early Evening News (tonight Weds) had a piece on teenage crime and how bad it was in some areas. They interviewed some youngsters in the street and one whipped out a long dangerous looking knife for the camera. I just hope the politicians were watching all that. I realise the public needs to see it, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to show it, because that boy and his mates are going to love seeing themselves on the BBC News, another badge of honour for them.

I just found this which has an article and a video of the whole item which was on the news.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7227ve4e9yo

David49

Obviously ban knives if they are already not illegal but you can’t ban kitchen knives which can be just as dangerous.
Children that display violent or antisocial behavior need to have remedial action taken at an early stage, their parents also if needed. Poverty is not an excuse because most poor children do behave reasonably.

Obviously ban knives if they are already not illegal but you can’t ban kitchen knives which can be just as dangerous

True. However, it might be an idea to limit, or attempt to limit, the number of teenage Mau Maus tucking machetes etc into their designer track-suit bottoms when they go out for an evening stroll.

Of course illegal weapons will still be got hold of - but it won't be quite so easy and we should not be making it easy either.

Obviously ban knives if they are already not illegal but you can’t ban kitchen knives which can be just as dangerous.
Children that display violent or antisocial behavior need to have remedial action taken at an early stage, their parents also if needed. Poverty is not an excuse because most poor children do behave reasonably.

If children are frequently left to their own devices and even - sometimes - to forage and fend for themselves, will they not become the uncivilised little louts that the tabloid press consistently call feral?

Throw into the mix impoverishment (as opposed to 'threadbare' poverty), adults addicted to drugs (including prescription drugs) and alcohol - and even social media - the lack of any real opportunity, an indifferent education of both parents and children, the disintegration of any social-services that might have been able to intervene in some instances, the lure of consumer advertising, the 'video-games that glorify violence, social-media that allows young people to do the same, the apparent ease with which various 'blades' can be purchased online, drugs mafia recruiting on county lines... and of course, little to no police presence - is the outcome not inevitable?

If you've ever watched any of those documentaries focused on deprived areas of the UK and listened to the adults who are attempting to run small businesses, shops, or just live a normal family life - adults who are terrorised by gangs of youths, have their properties regularly broken into, windows smashed, and are personally under threat, who are - as one woman explained - afraid to step over their own doorstep, doesn't this all paint a picture of a problem that is now so huge and so complex that it's patently obvious it's one that can't be fixed by any government (that's assuming it has the will to deal with it) in one term, or even two and three terms?

Youth violence is now a culture almost, so no one initiative is going to effectively deal with the problem. Banning the online sale of these huge bladed weapons would be a small start, because one has to start somewhere. But how do you deal with an ingrained culture / mindset / ignorance, and all the social, economic deprivations of a huge swathe of what is now, an underclass?

It's almost as if we've gone back to the Victorian era - we have the equivalent of cut-throats, pick-pockets, street urchins employed in various criminal activities. I can imagine my name-sake on his nightly walks around London, witnessing all this first hand, only now it's not just London and we can all see what's happening on our screens.

Blessed if I know how to even begin to deal with the cult of youth crime, but it's now endemic. The age at which children are lured, 'encouraged' or recruited into crime is dropping ever lower it seems, and I don't think it's necessarily a result of poverty either. I'm sure quite a few of us remember an impoverished upbringing with parents constantly struggling with financial hardship - but who still somehow managed to set boundaries and rules for their children.

So what has changed, what has happened? Is it technology, social media? Is it our 'libertarian values? Advertising?

I think I have an inkling of a theory, but, it would probably not be one that gained approval, I know that. So I'm content to continue to read the thread and hear what others have said and are saying.

biglouis

I was interested to see if anyone had bothered to read about the cognitive development in children of understanding the consequences of ones actions. It seems not. Probably too difficult a concept for the pearl clutchers and virtue signallers to comprehend.

Are you suggesting we don’t intervene with bad behaviour in under 25’s on the basis they can’t help it?
No I’m sure you aren’t.
I remember in the 70s-80’s research indicating non intervention was as successful as say a supervision order for mid teen offenders. They usually grew out of it, especially if they found a girlfriend
This discussion isn’t about a bit if boundary pushing, vandalism, etc it’s about very serious crimes

There was plenty of violence when I was a teen, the older gransnetters will remember Teddy Boys, later Mods and Rockers. As a naive 16 yr old I went to several dances that ended up with a fight the girls were not so innocent either armed with steel combs and handbags with sharp edges.

Then the main violence was over 18yr that a much larger police force kept in check, now it’s under 16 yrs that have been educated in a system with no consequences. They have been fed a diet of aggression and violence from video games and media it’s hardly surprising that some emulate that in real life.
Drugs monetarise that violence and mainstream TV displays graphic mutilation of a drug rival as “entertainment”.

Society (us) has allowed this behavior to flourish, the way we parent children has got to change if we want an improvement.

Weapons - whether a knife, a gun, a sharp rock, pointy stick or jagged shell - have been around since the beginning of time. These tools do not harm people - people harm people. When all weapons are banned, down to a knitting needle, it has minimal effect on safety because criminals don't follow rules. What if closed fists were banned? Would that prevent a man from deadly fury?

Quote Wyllow3 Wed 12-Jun-24 21:16:54
(Thanks Urms).
Read it.
He didn't live with her - possible he acted totally differently when visiting. Very bizarre actually to have absolutely no idea at all.

I hope his psych evaluation will throw some light on "why" to learn from. But to joke and laugh with family - suspect as I said the other day, any attention even notoriety is part of it. Very twisted/sick mind.

Is it usual for families to have no idea ?

A 12 year old twisted sick mind ?

Elrel

We need more restrictive laws on carrying knives, spot checks with knife arches, and better funding for social services. These children need to be identified and their parents given support long before they get to secondary school. So many youth clubs and other activities for young people have been forced to close due to withdrawal of funding.

I think it will take more than that now to deal with the problem.

Yes, of course, young people need activities - but those that are involved in dealing drugs are not just doing it out of boredom- they want the money, and I'm not sure youth clubs would hold much appeal to them, unfortunately.

My late mother established and ran a youth club for the local youth in the wilds of Lincolnshire - young 'lads' riding around on mopeds at speed through the country lanes, type of thing... it worked quite well because they were actually looking for activity and fun.

I think it's gone beyond that now.

We need more restrictive laws on carrying knives, spot checks with knife arches, and better funding for social services. These children need to be identified and their parents given support long before they get to secondary school. So many youth clubs and other activities for young people have been forced to close due to withdrawal of funding.

I was interested to see if anyone had bothered to read about the cognitive development in children of understanding the consequences of ones actions. It seems not. Probably too difficult a concept for the pearl clutchers and virtue signallers to comprehend.

The BBC Early Evening News (tonight Weds) had a piece on teenage crime and how bad it was in some areas. They interviewed some youngsters in the street and one whipped out a long dangerous looking knife for the camera. I just hope the politicians were watching all that. I realise the public needs to see it, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to show it, because that boy and his mates are going to love seeing themselves on the BBC News, another badge of honour for them.

Iam64

Dickens, we’ve had similar comments on our village face book groups. This idea that disruptive, criminal damage activities are ‘normal - what kids do’ can only come from individuals who behaved the same way.
They’re a vocal minority

Well, it doesn't surprise me, but I'm pleased to hear that it isn't just us who have such people.

However disruptive these teens are, this fellow pops up to tell us why they are the way they are, and always asks us, chidingly, whether we ever misbehaved when we were young.

Well yes we did, but I don't remember anyone in my 'gang' swearing at passers by or urinating in the neighbours' bushes. We just congregated, made an infernal noise - were asked to tone it down - which we did with a few apologies into the bargain, even if they were half-hearted... "sorreee", and usually just moved on until it was the set time for us to go home.

Basically, we just let him ramble between posts where we talk to each other. He indeed is a minority, but very vocal.

so sad that violence has become part of every day life

(Thanks Urms).
Read it.
He didn't live with her - possible he acted totally differently when visiting. Very bizarre actually to have absolutely no idea at all.

I hope his psych evaluation will throw some light on "why" to learn from. But to joke and laugh with family - suspect as I said the other day, any attention even notoriety is part of it. Very twisted/sick mind.

His grandma said ‘he’s a lovely lad and he didn’t domit’.
(Daily Mail Wyllow3)

Well it’s proven he did do it so sorry love, I don’t believe ‘he’s a lovely lad’ either.

It’s got nothing to do with whataboutery
It’s has to do with the opinion of ^^someposters here who equate this heinous behaviour with children who’s ^parents don’t know where they are or ^what they’re up too.

You don’t seriously believe this doesn’t have any bearing on such behaviour?

12 years olds should not be out roaming the streets at all hours and yes it is bad parenting to allow it. It’s lazy, selfish and totally lacking in any care or responsibility for one’s children.

Not every problem is down to poor parenting but anyone allowing children to be out doing goodness knows what late into the night deserves to be judged and shamed.

Absolutely terrible advice telling women to try and placate aggressive young men.

Dickens, we’ve had similar comments on our village face book groups. This idea that disruptive, criminal damage activities are ‘normal - what kids do’ can only come from individuals who behaved the same way.
They’re a vocal minority

Wyllow3

Urmstongran

What bothers me is that these boys have been on the Police radar for over a year. Action? None. Why not? The neighbours reported them plenty of times and many were genuinely terrified. What does it take to be heard these days?

Problem is, what could the police have done until a crime had been committed?

I'm with Iam on the importance of initiatives like Sure Start, start as early as possible, and don't think it should be a political football, it should be firmly on the agenda of any political party.

But if the naeighbours are terrfied of them and are constantly reporting them to the police then they have done things that the police can act on. This is what ASBOS are for. If they break those they can end up in court and in detention.

I've just come off our local FB community website.

A group of about 17 early and late teens (boys) have been gathering in a particular part of the town outside people's houses. They are, apparently, blocking the road, dropping litter, urinating in bushes, swearing, laughing and joshing around.

An older woman who lives where they are congregating has appealed to the parents on FB - not to request that they don't socialise with each other - just to show some consideration and respect to those who live where they are gathering.

Up pops a gentleman member who tells the 'complainers', "they are just kids doing what kids do" and asking that they be part of the solution by talking nicely to the boys and help to guide them in their behaviour. He was adamant that by not doing this, the complainers were part of the problem.

The 'complaining' woman said she would've talked to them but for the fact that a visiting friend had tried to pass them in her car when they were blocking the road, but they became aggressive and swore at her, so she lost the inclination, and suggested that perhaps the parents might like to have a word with them instead...

So you can see immediately who is to blame - it's us. Not the teenagers, not the parents- us.

The gentleman poster didn't explain how we caused the problem (he might still be working on that) but we definitely are part of it because we won't tackle these youth personally. And, obviously, it's not the parents' fault either because their kids are "just kids doing what kids do".

I never thought I'd be one of those joining the ranks of the older generation who complain about 'the youth of today'. In fact, I'm not complaining generally, I used to walk around with a gang of my peers making a racket - kids in groups get over-excited and make too much noise, but normally quieten down when asked. I don't make a fuss over that.

... but being aggressive, shouting, swearing and urinating in the bushes nearby? And the locals are supposed to deal with it otherwise they're part of the problem

There's a playing-field and a park in the town.

Some of the 'gang' are known - as are the parents. One or two are very busy parents working full-time with other children to cope with, but there are two families where neither parent gives a tinker's cuss what their offspring are up to when they leave the house. These types of parents do exist. Everywhere.

ASBO’s became a badge of honour. Photographs of boys 11-16 were posted on lamp posts in the areas in which they were running wild. Work meant I met many of these boys and their families. I’ve never felt so despondent. It was obvious the out of control behaviour was directly linked to neglect and abuse. Families 5th generation since anyone earned an honest crust. Benefits supplemented by crime and drug dealing.
It’s twelve years since I retired and I know it’s even worse now as all preventive, supportive interventions are devastated/

I accept I’m a gransnet leftie but I’m not naive and I’m very clear. If we don’t invest in proper public services, criminal justice system things will get worse. There are no quick fixes but I’m hoping ‘experts’ Will help inform policies and practice. Mr Gove was so wrong in dismissing them

We had a big fight in my town last week one boy was stabbed, all were under 16, 4 were local 2 from the city.
A county lines drug dispute most likely

Until children are supervised properly it’s going to get worse, at present many parents have no idea what their children are doing, especially teens.

Urmstongran

What bothers me is that these boys have been on the Police radar for over a year. Action? None. Why not? The neighbours reported them plenty of times and many were genuinely terrified. What does it take to be heard these days?

Problem is, what could the police have done until a crime had been committed?

I'm with Iam on the importance of initiatives like Sure Start, start as early as possible, and don't think it should be a political football, it should be firmly on the agenda of any political party.

Mollygo

CLG
I might not like Conservatives, but really?

Their parents or even grand parents were possibly born and raised under a Labour government. Is that why they have no control over their children or why they allow them to do whatever they want without intervention?

But Mollygo, CLG was responding to Curtaintwitcher who appears to be one of the many she believes is dreading a Labour government, under whom, apparently, things are only going to get worse.

So if party-politics are going to be dragged into this, then it's relevant, surely, that we have to acknowledge that the Tories have been in government for the last 14 years - when 'things' certainly don't appear to have improved?

My own opinion (not that it's of particular importance) is that the whole matter of youth-crime is complex, and that laying it at the door of either party is a rather simplistic response.