Two twelve year olds murder nineteen year old with machete

NannaFirework

I wish the death penalty was available in this case
💔

Abhorrent though the killing of that young man was, you cannot legislate to put 12-year olds to death.

Whatever they have become, they are a product of their home-life, their background, their upbringing and, unlike an adult, the rational part of a child's brain has not reached maturity, and they are more like feral animals than human beings at that age.

We stopped executing children a long time ago.

We can't bring back anything. Be it the birch, the death penalty,National Service or smacking little children.

Thankfully these crimes are scarce but the society some of us recall is changed forever.

It’s simply wrong to suggest that ‘a light smack’ or use of the cane at school will transform feral children into good citizens

Death sentence is a silly comment but we could make a determined effort to improve the behavior of the few children and their parents that are the problem

I don’t believe that will happen

Iam64

It’s simply wrong to suggest that ‘a light smack’ or use of the cane at school will transform feral children into good citizens

Plus the fact that most feral children aren’t in school.

David49

Death sentence is a silly comment but we could make a determined effort to improve the behavior of the few children and their parents that are the problem

I don’t believe that will happen

...but we could make a determined effort to improve the behavior of the few children and their parents that are the problem

I don't think anyone would disagree with you - but how?

In what world do two 12 year-olds horrifically butcher a young man with a machete - and one of them previously posing with the weapon stuck down his trousers FGS?

I'm trying to look back to my own teenage era to rationally think about whether there appeared to be a plague of feral behaviour in the slightly run-down area of north London in which I lived at the time. Of course, there was no internet then, so would we even be as aware of it as we are now? I have no idea.

There have always been gangs, 'sink' areas of deprivation, criminality, drunkenness, children who appear to be out of control etc - is it worse now, or are we more aware of it because of rolling 24-hour news and the internet?

In the early 60s when I met my (now late) ex husband, he worked as a Waterman & Lighterman and though we both lived in Richmond, Surrey, he travelled to work in the east end docks - and I used to meet him from work often when he 'tied-up' in some of the most deprived and rough areas of London's east end. I would happily travel on the tube to stand around outside the docks or some crumbling warehouse on the Thames, walking along streets, alleyways, etc, where poverty was evident, and where there would be gangs of youth hanging around. But not once was I ever threatened, nor did I feel in danger of being so.

Was I just lucky, blind to the danger? I don't know. But for sure I would not do that now - I wouldn't even feel safe on the underground let alone walking around the streets. Some of those areas I traversed are now, allegedly, no-go areas for any 'outsider'.

What has changed? Why is youth crime so endemic? Or has anything changed and it's always been thus and the only difference is that we are now all aware of it?

When I was a child I attended a number of schools who used hitting you on the hand with a ruler as a punishment, in my case usually for either 'dumb insolence' or 'answering back'

Far from corporal punishment making me more obedient it had exactly the opposite effect, it made me more truculent and difficult because my attitude to corporal punshment was 'Do not think you can beat me submission'.

What was far more effective were long boring punishments like writing lines, litter picking or doing something useful but tedious. It was so time consuming and dull and to be avoided at all cost.

Corporal punishment is going to have no effect on these children, their whole lives are lived in violence as the victims and perpetrators.

The defining factor in all these childrens lives seem to be broken families, women with children by different fathers, fathers who have never been part of the family and have multiple children y different women, no secure family structure.

How on earth we can begin to re-build family life, cohesion, security and effective child rearing in the society these children come from. I do not know, but unless we do we will not see any end to crimes like these.

I think youth crime is increasing because biological fathers raising their sons is on the decline. Parents divorcing is very common now, as is children born out-of-wedlock. I know girls need fathers but I think boys need fathers even more.

Absent fathers has an extraordinarily detrimental impact on children, pretending it doesn't is deeply harmful to those children. I would be really interested in the research on same sex parents ( but the numbers probably arent there) is it two parent families that is really the protective factor? I think it will be a complex picture but we are letting children down if we dont consider the impact of absent fathers.

.but we could make a determined effort to improve the behavior of the few children and their parents that are the problem

I don't think anyone would disagree with you - but how?

By monitoring children and parents from nursery school onwards, those that fall outside normal behavior standards get extra supervision and remedial action if needed

It’s not too different that the extra help that SEN children get (should get), I don’t believe it will be a large number because sort the ring leaders out and you don’t get the followers.

They arent in school in a meaningful way, certainly by secondary school.

Macadia

I think youth crime is increasing because biological fathers raising their sons is on the decline. Parents divorcing is very common now, as is children born out-of-wedlock. I know girls need fathers but I think boys need fathers even more.

My son was "born out of wedlock"- but his father was an ever-present figure in his life.

And it certainly made a difference to me as he grew into youth and manhood.

There were problems and 'matters' that really did need a father's perspective. Had his father not been on the scene, I don't know how well I, as a full-time working single parent, would have coped.

Galaxy, I appreciate what you say about absent fathers, but my generation was brought up with absent fathers, they were away fighting a war. Daddy, to me, was this strange man who apppeared sometimes and slept in Mummy's bed. My mother could stop you in your tracks with one look. mothers have the most influence on young children, which is the age the idea of right and wrong is instilled in children.

It's not what the data shows, or at least it doesnt seem to be. Some of the information is very uncomfortable, the risk of abuse from men in the home who are not biologically related to children for example is much higher than those who are related to the child. It would be lovely to pretend it's not true but it wont help. I am not even sure there is an answer to these issues (or at least an answer that's not deeply authoritarian and problematic for women) but we have to look at some of these issues.

MOnica, I agree with you entirely. Unless we do something where will it all end? Richi Sunak proposes bringing back National service, if a form of this was utilized perhaps for comunity purposes, with army style discipline, instead of locking people up where they learn nothing as far as I can see, maybe that would help. Litter picking along the motorways would be a good starting place! I don't know, doubtless there will be numerous people decrying the idea, but what we are doing at present isn't working is it? We need someone a good bit younger than me, who understands the internet (a foreign country as far as I am concerned) with a bit of get up and go about them (departed with me) to start a movement . I for one would support it.

Dickens
You’re talking about the area where I was brought up.
You were safe. It was a different code of conduct then but if anything had happened to you the scum would have been dealt with by locals.
I was safe because people knew who my father was so they knew what was coming if I was hurt in any way 😉

NannaFirework

I wish the death penalty was available in this case
💔

I can hardly believe that anyone would write that sentence in this day and age. Answering violence with violence has never worked, and is morally wrong. As for suggesting the death penalty for 12-year-olds, words fail me.

Litter picking by the motorway is more like Community Service as an alternative to prison than the kind of National Service Sunak suggested.

I used to occasionally buy from the Wish site, but a few years ago I found some terrible looking knives for sale on there, and ceased dealing with them. I reported it, but was told they weren`t doing anything illegal! WHY?

petra

Dickens
You’re talking about the area where I was brought up.
You were safe. It was a different code of conduct then but if anything had happened to you the scum would have been dealt with by locals.
I was safe because people knew who my father was so they knew what was coming if I was hurt in any way 😉

You were safe. It was a different code of conduct then but if anything had happened to you the scum would have been dealt with by locals.

I certainly felt safe.

On one occasion my OH was attending a meeting in a pub in Plaistow in a bit of a 'rough' enclave. I was to meet him there afterward.

I got there early (the meeting was in an upstairs room) so went into the bar to wait - the only patrons were men, some of whom were swearing like the proverbial troopers. One of the men sitting down - a man of about 40 - got up and walked over to the cussing group at the bar and said, "Oi, belt up, there's ladies present" (and something else which I can't remember because it was so long ago).

They did 'belt up' - in fact one even apologised!

Can you imagine the same scenario now? No one would dare say a word to any group of men for fear of being punched or stabbed.

... and the 'ladies' would probably be effing and blinding along with them. .

Yep, it's a different world alright.

MargaretinNorthant

Galaxy, I appreciate what you say about absent fathers, but my generation was brought up with absent fathers, they were away fighting a war. Daddy, to me, was this strange man who apppeared sometimes and slept in Mummy's bed. My mother could stop you in your tracks with one look. mothers have the most influence on young children, which is the age the idea of right and wrong is instilled in children.

Galaxy, I appreciate what you say about absent fathers, but my generation was brought up with absent fathers, they were away fighting a war.

But it was still a family unit. Dad was away fighting a war - but there were probably photo's of him in the sitting room in his uniform; he was talked about, his leave might have been a focal point, infrequent letters from the front, etc, possibly other family members (the way people lived then) were frequent visitors - he was absent but he was still an important presence in the family unit to the children - he was their Dad, and they knew they had one.

Hellogirl1

I used to occasionally buy from the Wish site, but a few years ago I found some terrible looking knives for sale on there, and ceased dealing with them. I reported it, but was told they weren`t doing anything illegal! WHY?

Because it’s a Chinese company and we have no jurisdiction with them.