Keir Starmer's definition of working class

Thanks for starting another Keir Starmer bashing thread MOnica. Do you really want five more years of Conservative government? Because I don’t…

Here is the interview.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UCxIFkSD0Y

I find the ownership of things as unreliable a guide to people's wealth/class as having savings.

My parents were in their mid-50s before they had a phone in the house. the reason was not poverty. My father was an army officer, but we kept moving house with the job and at that time if you contacted the telephone company for a phone it would often be several years before you got it.

This meant, in my parents case that if you ordered a phone the army would move you on before you got to the top of the list, so they never bothered. When he left the army and they settled down to a fixed home, then they got a phone.

I have known a lot of ostensibly comfortably off people, socially quite upmarket who did not have enough money to write a cheque in an emergency, Most were retirement age but they had all lived lives of financial inepness, not necessarily thriftless, but just people who never thought further ahead than tomorrows breakfast - if that.

Which is why - working class or working people - this exampe of muddled aand not properly thought through comments by the man who could be Prime Minister this time next month is so dispiriting.

Mamie

Just checked the Tom Baldwin biography, Chapter 2 and it describes Rodney Starmer working alone in his factory, based in an old canteen. Before that he worked in other people's factories in South London and Caterham, but wanted to work nearer to home to care for his wife. Keir's mother was not able to work for much of his childhood, she had Still's Disease and became increasingly disabled. The impact on his childhood is very clear in this and other sources.
I realise people may not find this very interesting or relevant, but I do think facts matter.

I think Keir finds it difficult talking about his family, and has found it hard having to talk about them publicly, but realised he had to do it so it really annoys me when people mock him for it. The first time I heard his back story was when he was on Desert Island Discs and I was moved to tears listening to it. I hope when he ( hopefully) becomes PM he can protect his family in the way that I’m sure he wants to do and that his wife can continue working.

And reportedly the NHS doesn’t want a Labour government.

I think the fact that Victoria Starmer is an OT in the NHS matters great deal - first hand experience of what it's really like. Day by day, week by week.

Just checked the Tom Baldwin biography, Chapter 2 and it describes Rodney Starmer working alone in his factory, based in an old canteen. Before that he worked in other people's factories in South London and Caterham, but wanted to work nearer to home to care for his wife. Keir's mother was not able to work for much of his childhood, she had Still's Disease and became increasingly disabled. The impact on his childhood is very clear in this and other sources.
I realise people may not find this very interesting or relevant, but I do think facts matter.

I don't know if other countries are as obsessed with class as we are; definitions are very fluid and I would say based more on education, thus increased earning power, rather than antecedents. It is the attempt to categorise people into deserving and undeserving workers that offends.

Very broadly speaking, upper class encompassed those descended from the aristocracy, usually with family wealth but supposedly with good breeding, (which I would not attempt to define.)

Middle class loosely described people with professions, formerly younger sons who had to earn a living, generally in the church, the law and the military and later expanding to include people with university qualifications and training

Working class was a euphemism for lower class, the 'rough poor' until nearly everyone had paid employment.
And 'working people' is still associated with working class which to many is a derogatory term, as is obvious from the response it provoked. Obviously, some workers are going to be taxed but not all, and the implication is it will be those who save, or as my father drummed into me, 'always have something in reserve,' which came from hard work and thrift and supporting his family through the depression, not a well-paid job.

Starmer made a foolish choice of words, and as has been pointed out, a barrister should know better.

Actually, I’m this century, anyone who works is effectively “working clas” but actually Starmer does not use this expression at all, he uses the term “working” not “working class” I have not heard ANY politician refer to “working class” just “working” “not working” and “middle”

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes Sago, he never misses an opportunity to remind us. And his mother was a nurse.

This latest statement is worrying. He talks a lot about ‘working people’. Now it seems that phrase means ‘people who have nothing’.

No. It means people that, if eg the fridge breaks down don’t have a back up crisis fund to replace it so probably end up having to borrow money at a high interest rate which then throws them into debt so that as well as not having a crisis fund they are then in debt and having to pay off the interest so are in a downward spiral. Why shouldn’t he remind us that his mother was a nurse? He’s had years of people assuming that he was posh because of being called Sir. I’m pretty sure that he knows more about working class people than Sunak.

Working people? Really?
Anyone who uses their salary to pat their mortgage, bills etc is a working person!
Whether their salary is £20,000 or £ £165,000, they still work to keep their lifestyle.
Only the landed gentry can not be considered 'working people'!

Germanshepherdsmum

A sole trader can employ people! Apparently it was a successful business so I would be very surprised if only Starmer senior was working there.

I am pretty sure that is what the Baldwin biography described and have seen it from other sources. The biography also described Starmer senior as working there all day and going back to work in the evening. There are lots of descriptions of the house and family life and it was clearly not a family who were even comfortably off. For context I know the house well, it was about ten minutes from ours.

Yes maddy, very short memories.

Thanks Sparklefizz

What have they been doing with all the money?

Furlough, Covid vaccines, massive energy payments to every single household in the country, cost of living payments to huge numbers of people

Have you forgotten?
Short memories!

Yes, Wyllow - and now we know how Starmer interprets those words.

I am a floating voter, but having listened very carefully over the past few months to the utterances from Keir Starmer’s mouth, Hell will freeze over before I would vote for a party led by him. Put Yvette Cooper in charge and there is a strong possibility that I would.

Witzend

To me it’s a bit worrying that he apparently doesn’t understand the meaning of ‘working’, or only in a seriously diehard Old Labour way.

He's left the diehard bit behind, but as I said above, we are struggling as a society to re define how to define different groups with different needs.

The Labour Manifesto at all points uses working people - I've just done a check on this.

A sole trader can employ people! Apparently it was a successful business so I would be very surprised if only Starmer senior was working there.

Yes he was a sole trader. Like a plumber or electrician. He must have learnt his crafts skills as an apprentice or in a factory before that.
But people seem determined to press opposing narratives!

Thank heaven my grandchildren have no thoughts of ‘class’ ,

Everything I have read about The Oxted Tool Company says Rodney Starmer was a sole trader. Do people have any evidence that it had employees?
Would be interested to know because I certainly can't remember a business of any size.

Sparklefizz

He has finally admitted that only men can have penises, so I suppose that's a step in the right direction.

Wow! I must have missed that. Has he said that changing sex is impossible too?

To me it’s a bit worrying that he apparently doesn’t understand the meaning of ‘working’, or only in a seriously diehard Old Labour way.

What’s with the cheques? They don’t use them anymore. Outdated ,like the class system.