Keir Starmer's definition of working class

Well said , Dickens. I do wonder sometimes what is the point of joining in these "debates " as there is such a lot of "bashing".It would be better to look at the records of the parties. Name calling does belong in the playground.

Monica, "can write a cheque" simply means "can pay your bills".
Everyone knows that many people who work nevertheless can't pay their bills.

The huge differential between the haves and the have nots must be remedied.
I do not know what sort of school your grandchildren go to but you should know that kids at state schools often have no playing fields or green spaces to play in.

Caleo

Monica, "can write a cheque" simply means "can pay your bills".
Everyone knows that many people who work nevertheless can't pay their bills.

The huge differential between the haves and the have nots must be remedied.
I do not know what sort of school your grandchildren go to but you should know that kids at state schools often have no playing fields or green spaces to play in.

Didn’t the Conservatives sell off a lot of school playing fields?

^ I'll be delighted when this is all over in a few weeks and we have a new government who can just get on with equalising society.^

That's what I am hoping for, Dd. but I'm not confident it will happen.

I think that the basic problem is that an awful lot of people doesn't want society to be equalised in any way. There's a very clear divide here on Gnet. which I think reflects the electorate.

Didn’t the Conservatives sell off a lot of school playing fields?

They certainly approved it, MayBee. All that lovely land just ripe for development. Then they cut local council budgets to the bone so they had to close their leisure facilities...

Caleo

Monica, "can write a cheque" simply means "can pay your bills".
Everyone knows that many people who work nevertheless can't pay their bills.

The huge differential between the haves and the have nots must be remedied.
I do not know what sort of school your grandchildren go to but you should know that kids at state schools often have no playing fields or green spaces to play in.

I have two senior schools within walking distance, both have sports halls, theatres, swimming pools, tennis/basketball courts.

These facilities are used by community groups after school and at the weekends.

Three of the primary schools within walking distance have large sports fields all have swimming pools and one has a hard court for tennis/basketball.

The primary next door to me has a wild nature garden, outside gym, climbing frames (eco friendly) along with a very large sports field and hard service playground.

We have two council run leisure centres in our borough, both with swimming pools, gyms, sports courts and are cheap for pensioners, students and those ion benefits .

To say that the U.K. is on its knees is an exaggeration, some areas have less facilities than others, maybe the residents should look to their local and county councils to see where their council tax has been spent.

(We also have two youth clubs run by a local church group along with a Sure Start Centre (yes they are still around and this one is seriously under used, despite it’s being publicised ))

All the above are in a commuter belt village (not big enough to be called a town) Properties are eye watering price wise, fortunately there are some council properties and housing association properties)

Didn’t the Conservatives sell off a lot of school playing fields?
I’m sure someone will come up with an answer, but some schools in my experience as a child, a parent, a teacher and a Governor, primary and secondary, were built with no room on the site for fields and the children either play on the playground or troop along to the local park.

Mollygo

^Didn’t the Conservatives sell off a lot of school playing fields?^
I’m sure someone will come up with an answer, but some schools in my experience as a child, a parent, a teacher and a Governor, primary and secondary, were built with no room on the site for fields and the children either play on the playground or troop along to the local park.

One of my inner London Primary School’s in the 60’s had the girls playground on the roof of the building and the boys playground in the quadrant in the middle.

The next and final one had a hard surface playground for all, marked out with hopscotch and various games.

Grammar school had a small green area, four tennis/netball courts along with a hard surface playground.

Not sure schools in towns/inner cities have ever had much green space or playing fields.

MaizieD

^ I'll be delighted when this is all over in a few weeks and we have a new government who can just get on with equalising society.^

That's what I am hoping for, Dd. but I'm not confident it will happen.

I think that the basic problem is that an awful lot of people doesn't want society to be equalised in any way. There's a very clear divide here on Gnet. which I think reflects the electorate.

I think that the basic problem is that an awful lot of people doesn't want society to be equalised in any way. There's a very clear divide here on Gnet. which I think reflects the electorate.

I think you are right.

And it's a mistake to believe that all simply want a more equitable society.

If the electorate can be convinced by vested interests that anyone who hasn't saved for that rainy-day is the author of their own misfortune, then they will plug it for all it's worth. And they have, through their interface with the public, and it works. Hence we have the black-and-white picture of the work-shy, scroungers etc, who are the cause of our economic stagnation, and who should either be conscripted or have any benefits they receive cut off, and then we will be Great Britain again.

No mention is made of stagnating wages, high rents, working in the gig-economy, or contract working, which makes budgeting almost impossible, or very difficult.

Perhaps those in these positions should look for a better job? Well, they do - and that's why there's gaps in the service industries which have to be filled by someone - and that someone will then be faced with the same problems, and can be demonised by the rest of us for not working hard enough.

It's all so bloody predictable and depressing, so I'm butting out and going to do something productive and useful in the kitchen and the garden.

MaizieD

^ I'll be delighted when this is all over in a few weeks and we have a new government who can just get on with equalising society.^

That's what I am hoping for, Dd. but I'm not confident it will happen.

I think that the basic problem is that an awful lot of people doesn't want society to be equalised in any way. There's a very clear divide here on Gnet. which I think reflects the electorate.

That may be the case, but equally there are a lot of people who do want it, and we have been thwarted for 14 years (for most of my life, actually) and have just had to put up with it. If the tide has turned for a while, I won't lose sleep if Some People don't like it

Society has never been equal and it never will be unless we become communists.

That's a point of view. It's not one I share, though.

Much depends on what you see as equality. If it's all about material things, then no, we won't all be equal. But if it's about opportunity, respect and dignity then I do think we can be a lot more equal than we are at present.

Germanshepherdsmum

Society has never been equal and it never will be unless we become communists.

Society will never be equal full stop.

But societies, where the gap between the rich and poor is narrow are generally more successful with a happier population.

I don’t see that happening here. You are probably talking about societies which have been thus for very many years, so that nobody knows anything different.

I think we can ensure that people get equality of opportunity, and stop the cards being stacked against some instead of others.

Whitewavemark2

Germanshepherdsmum

Society has never been equal and it never will be unless we become communists.

Society will never be equal full stop.

But societies, where the gap between the rich and poor is narrow are generally more successful with a happier population.

But societies, where the gap between the rich and poor is narrow are generally more successful with a happier population.

GSM is right to suggest that all being equal = communism, but I don't think that is what anyone actually wants.

But as Doodledog says - it's about equality of opportunity and therefore social and economic mobility, which is a completely different system to communism.

I don't think the ever-growing gap between (in simplistic terms) rich and poor is good for any nation. For obvious reasons, and it breeds discontent, societal break-down, and political unrest. Investors do not like political turbulence and uncertainty when they are looking to invest.

Yes, Dickens/Doodledog Equality of opportunity is what the L Party aims for, and it will be a tough road: I believe a lot of hostility directed against it is a result of endless fear mongering

Germanshepherdsmum

Society has never been equal and it never will be unless we become communists.

To me equality is about giving everyone the right from birth to fulfil their potential regardless of their social standing or Wherabouts in the country they’re born.

You know the saying:

“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression”.

We have free state education for all. Parents often are the cause of their children not fulfilling their potential. As are the children. You can take a horse to water …

MayBee70

To me equality is about giving everyone the right from birth to fulfil their potential regardless of their social standing or Wherabouts in the country they’re born.

Sounds good MayBee70.
How would you advise any government to achieve that?

Mollygo

MayBee70

To me equality is about giving everyone the right from birth to fulfil their potential regardless of their social standing or Wherabouts in the country they’re born.

Sounds good MayBee70.
How would you advise any government to achieve that?

Education Education Education…

I'm not sure why those in favour of equality should have to have 'oven ready' plans (unless they are politicians, that is), but I'll have a go.

In no particular order, I would go back to the days of free access to museums, galleries, sports centres etc, and forge links between these facilities and schools, so that everyone feels part of and represented by culture.

I would subsidise nightclasses and FE, so that people could more easily retrain, or catch up with lost education. I would ensure than no child went to school hungry or went without a meal at lunchtime, and that if homework relied on technology that every child had access to that, too. This would help everyone to benefit from the educational opportunities that are currently more readily available to those who can afford them.

I would carry out a review of the actual cost of scrapping tuition fees, taking into account the money universities bring to local economies and the taxation on staff salaries, and keep them as low as possible if the result was that they absolutely had to be kept (which I doubt). I would remove interest on the repayments, regardless, for the reasons given above.

I would introduce free nursery education for all children of working parents (regardless of parental income) on the same basis as free higher education - ie that there are benefits as well as costs if parents can more easily go to work. I would scrap child benefit and NI payments to SAHPs to help pay for this.

As I have previously said on other threads, I would introduce a tax on the profit on housing (taking into account refurbishment costs and inflation) and ring fence it to pay for more council housing, which I would build as a priority with no right to buy. I would look at schemes that allowed people to buy into shared ownership with LAs (separate from council houses) so that those who couldn't afford to buy outright could still benefit from rents that reduced as they got older and could afford to buy bigger shares, so they wouldn't face retirement at the mercy of landlords. I would also tax second homes and BTL, so that it became far less profitable, and would restrict the number of holiday homes and Air B&Bs in areas that have too many. All Air B&B owners would be expected to pay full council tax, whether or not they use the house as a full-time business (if this is not the case already), so that residents are the priority in all areas and don't live in facility deserts out of the tourist season.

I would work towards scrapping private medicine other than for cosmetic and optional procedures, and in the meantime would add a tax to the cost that would be ring fenced to be spent on reducing waiting lists for the NHS. This would reduce the massive health inequalities between rich and poor.

As university fees would be much lower or scrapped altogether, I would bring in a rule that students on essential professional courses longer than the standard three years would have to either work in the relevant profession for a set period or pay a fee, much as those sponsored by the armed forces do on 3 year courses. This would largely cover those working in Health and Education, and would be compensated for by better starting salaries.

More radically, I would look at a scheme where people who don't pay tax and are neither carers nor disabled themselves should be expected to contribute to society in one of a range of voluntary roles, so that workers are not subsidising those who choose not to work. This would have to be carefully considered so that nobody was put out of work as a result, but the principle would be that everyone who benefits from living in a civil society contributes to it and has a stake in it.

I would give large subsidies to companies who relocated to areas of deprivation, and where practicable would encourage more links than already exist between these companies and universities to encourage local employment.

Now can someone who is not in favour of equality please give some of their own ideas and explain their reasoning?

MayBee70

Mollygo

MayBee70

To me equality is about giving everyone the right from birth to fulfil their potential regardless of their social standing or Wherabouts in the country they’re born.

Sounds good MayBee70.
How would you advise any government to achieve that?

Education Education Education…

A good start would be the funding for the implementation of the recommendations of the First 1000 Days Improvement programmes.

As I am not in favour of your view of equality, Doodledog, save to say that I am glad you are unlikely to be PM, I will refrain from commenting.