Starmer's stubbornness

Genuinely good to hear, but it's a postcode lottery. A government has to look at the situation as a whole.

*Bursar not Busar

Comments are being made by posters who have no knowledge of what independent schools do yet hate their very existence.
You're right Germanshepherdsmum. I'm sure it's no secret that I was a Head at a private school, and have only recently retired from teaching in private schools. DH is also a Busar and Compliance Inspector for private schools. I think we know our stuff inside out!
In my school, I gave away several free places to children whose parents could not afford the fees. These were not government assisted places, the money came from my own pocket. My hardworking staff also received a discount on school fees. Our own 3 children attended other private schools in the area and we paid full fees for each of them when they could have been educated at no cost. We paid for them in order to free up those free places for poorer children. So charity, yes!

I have already said that independent schools do much good in the state sector and in taking in children whose parents cannot afford fees - but it seems to fall on deaf ears. Comments are being made by posters who have no knowledge of what independent schools do yet hate their very existence. How very typical of old Labour views - what has really changed?

Glorianny hear, hear👏👏👏

That truly would be an act of charity on the part of private schools!

So if private schools really want to maintain their charitable status perhaps they should offer to make a percentage of their pupils those who need special help. The school would fund all the child's needs including assessment and the EHCP and educate them free of charge. Thus giving children who really need it all the necessary help, and relieving the state sector of some responsibility.

Don’t worry, that magic tree will be shaken and all will be well.

I fear that the policy will blight vulnerable pupils who are thrown into the deep end of the state sector with insufficient support. Just to satisfy those party members and supporters who want to punish the parents who send their children to an independent school, and consequently their children.

maddyone,your family experience is of course just that. I recognise both of you taught for many years, very valuable contribution.
I don’t see my post as saying never the Twain shall meet. More that this area is one that divides posters into largely for or against Labour’s proposal. As is clear, I support it

Iam64

Private schools are not charities, they’re businesses. There’s a particularly clear divide here between those of us who support Labour’s proposals and those who don’t
To dismiss it a as the politics of envy says a lot about those who see private schools as sacrosanct and state schools as awful

I can’t agree with this Iam.
Take my family as an example; all three of my children attended our local state primary school from age 5 - 11. Then my two boys left primary and went to an independent senior school that my husband happened to teach in. They went there from age 11 - 18. The fees were reduced, because their father was a teacher there. Our daughter went to a different independent school at 11 because her father’s school didn’t take girls. When she was 16 she transferred to the school where her father taught, by then he was deputy head. She stayed there until she was 18.
My husband started his career in teaching at a state ex grammar school and then taught in the independent school until he retired.
I taught in state schools for the whole of my teaching career.
And so our family has worked and been taught in both the state and independent sectors, and I don’t think our family is exceptional. Many families straddle both sectors, both in teaching and in educating.
It’s too black and white to think of the two sectors as being completely separate and never the twain shall meet.

You simply don’t understand the legal meaning of ‘charitable purposes’ Glorianny. Not all independent schools, by any means, were formed to educate the children of the poor. New independent schools are still opening.

Germanshepherdsmum

Obviously you don’t know how much assistance independent schools give to state schools children whose parents can’t afford fees Glorianny. Unfortunately you don’t understand the legal meaning of charitable status. I have already posted a link. Independent schools do not pretend to be charities. If registered with the Charity Commission they are charities.

I know that the charitable status of most schools is only historical and certainly doesn't apply now. That in fact the original purpose of many schools established to educate the children of the poor has been subverted. I know how the system operates which uses bursaries and grants to fund children whose parents have some financial liquidity problem, through divorce or other family crisis, and who the school chooses to keep.
This is an interesting article about the history of their charitable status www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-charitable-status-of-elite-schools-the-origins-of-a-national-scandal
You are a legal expert GSM the law says a charity is

The Charities Act says that a ‘charity’ is an institution which is established for charitable purposes only (see part 2 of this guide) and
is subject to the control of the High Court’s charity law jurisdiction (see part 5 of this guide)

Is the whole purpose of a private school Charitable?

sarnia your post is such a good example as to why we need to put so much more money into educating the 93% rather than the 7%.

Of course not. Universities offer scholarships/ bursaries etc.

Cossy

Btw, Sarnia, the state system isn’t always “second-best” many many children so well.

Notwithstanding this, why do you it’s ok for most of us to “put up with second-best” for our own children and grand-chikdren?

Those SEND children without EHCP's who find themselves back in mainstream will be getting a second best education compared to the specialist teachers and environment they will be removed from should this 20% VAT increase be put in place. This is because their mainstream provision could not meet the needs set down on that child's EHCP so they were deemed to need a special school, many of which are private. The majority of children will be able to access a state school education which is not second class for those fortunate enough to not have special needs. However, it is second-best for the SEND children it has already failed.

Whotewavemark2 I can see the argument for making private schools eligible bodies.

If this were to happen, I hope it would not deter them from awarding scholarships and such like to those who are unable to afford to send their children to them under normal circumstances particularly those with SEND.

Treat their supplies as exempt not examples!

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 it is not a matter of passing on partially or fully if a company is registered for VAT any service goods provided has to be invoiced for the cost involved plus VAT at the appropriate rate.

Are you suggesting that the schools reduce their fees by a percentage so that when VAT is added to the invoice it will be the same as before the VAT was chargeable?

If so this means a reduction in actual fees/money to the school.

As HMRC tax collection is mainly if not solely done by computer programs/systems the schools will have the added cost of these and/or higher accountancy bills.

Yes, school fees have risen way beyond the RPI year after year after year. A reduction does not seem entirely unreasonable.

GrannyGravy13

LizzieDrip

This is not an increase in fees which go towards their child/rens education it is a Government tax on school fees which trots straight off to HMRC

Good!

You do realise that University Fees (paid for education i.e.fees by another name) are currently exempt from VAT. Will you be saying good if/when they become subject to VAT

Taxing childrens or young adults education is wrong on every level.

No it is different on a couple of levels.

Universities are defined as “eligible bodies” and the supply therefore is exempt. It is an exempt supply of education, vocational courses etc. But what the university will always have to do is absorb the vat relating to the supply of education.

So why you may ask yourself are private schools not classed as eligible bodies?

Because it seems they wanted it all ways.

They wanted the ability to reclaim VAT as well as have their supplies as a charity zero-rated rather than exempt as an eligible body.

VAT can be charged on private education because it has been previously charged at zero-rating.

I would like to add that they will almost all be registered for VAT in order to claim input tax but it was not a requirement as it will be once they are subject to a 20% charge on their supplies.

so in my opinion, the fairest thing would be to reclassify them as an “ eligible body”, where they absorb all the VAT on the supplies of goods and services they receive and treat their supplies of education as examples.

They have lived very well off the tax payer for a good few decades I think.

Whitewavemark2 it is not a matter of passing on partially or fully if a company is registered for VAT any service goods provided has to be invoiced for the cost involved plus VAT at the appropriate rate.

Are you suggesting that the schools reduce their fees by a percentage so that when VAT is added to the invoice it will be the same as before the VAT was chargeable?

If so this means a reduction in actual fees/money to the school.

As HMRC tax collection is mainly if not solely done by computer programs/systems the schools will have the added cost of these and/or higher accountancy bills.

The VAT we all pay will find its way into the revenue.

Now a business has a choice.

1. To choose not to pass on the 20% VAT by tightening its belt in various ways.

2. To partially pass on the 20%

3. To fully pass on the 20%.

The schools will now (if they haven’t previously registered for VAT) have the ability to recover all the input tax they have previously had to absorb.

So the VAT on all the goods and services they now receive can be fully recovered, providing it is related to a taxable supply.

As I have previously posted, none of this will happen until at least the next tax year, by which time the customer will be able to decide to continue with this supply or seek state education. If their funds do not run to the ability to buy education for their child. They will simply be making the same choice as 93% of the population.

No big deal I would have thought.

It is indeed.

LizzieDrip

^This is not an increase in fees which go towards their child/rens education it is a Government tax on school fees which trots straight off to HMRC^

Good!

You do realise that University Fees (paid for education i.e.fees by another name) are currently exempt from VAT. Will you be saying good if/when they become subject to VAT

Taxing childrens or young adults education is wrong on every level.

This is not an increase in fees which go towards their child/rens education it is a Government tax on school fees which trots straight off to HMRC

Good!

Whitewavemark2 of course as per my post of 13.30 today.

(simplistic I know, but mitigating circumstances)