What is it that attracts racists, Islamaphobes, homophobes and general bigots to Nigel Farage?

Good post foxie48. I would substitute dishonest answers for simple ones.

Where is the joined up thinking?

You only have to look at ONS population statistics to see that our birth and death rates are about same rate - around 600,000 births a year and 600,000 deaths a year. We have record numbers of working age people 50-66 unable to work through long-term health issues. To grow our economy we need either the existing workforce to be more productive or more workers. Where are they to come from? The immigation salary list is a list of occupations where employers face a shortage of suitable labour and where the government judge that migration is a sensible response to that shortage. As well as the care sector we have a serious shortage of people to work in the construction industry. Much is made of people arriving on small boats being young men. Young men. They aren’t going to need a school place and its unlikely they will need much in the way of healthcare. What they need is work. Young men are exactly what is needed in the construction industry. Rather than leave them languishing on barges and disused RAF bases, get their applications processed and into work, building the houses we need.

Or renovating them … Action on Empty Houses have found that in England alone there are 700,000 empty residential properties. Over 250,000 of those are long-term empty. Unless there is a compelling and acceptable reason for these homes being empty, they should be brought back into use.

We have 1100 conurbations: core cities, other cites, large, medium and small towns. Paraphrasing what FranP said upthread, there is plenty of room to absorb more people around the country, barely making a dent, people who could work and contribute to the economy and communities.

I’ve just seen that that black journalist Femi Oluwole who had a ticket and press pass was barred from entering (and therefore reporting) on the Reform rally in Birmingham. No reason given. Heavies just escorted him from the building.

x.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1807507047052956014

Galaxy

All political parties offer that in some sense though, the idea that Starmer is the person to solve the complex issues facing the NHS is incredibly naive. Why would he be, no one else has achieved that. I say that as a labour voter.

I think Labour came closer to 'solving' the NHS 1997-2010 than governments before and after them.

Though, of course, in 2024 it has more to solve and completely different 'actors' with which to solve it.

Sometimes there are small things that can make a big difference, though. Eg doing something about bed blocking. When I worked for the NHS older patients would chat to others when waiting for their appointments. Something that I encouraged but the doctors weren’t happy with. I then read of a surgery somewhere that offered coffee mornings for its elderly patients and, lo and behold the number of patients requiring appointments dropped. I’m not implying that they deliberately made appointments as something to do but their health improved by getting out and meeting people. Little things can make a big difference. I think that Labour have been listening to people about lots of things for quite a long time now and it will form the basis of a new approach to lots of things.

Having given this plenty of thought, I’ve come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, it’s just my personal view, that people are turning to Reform NOT because they are right leaning nazi’s but because the govt currently has made us all lose hope and it’s easy to be persuaded by a good speaker, with a grin, who claims to know how we all feel, how he’s going to make it all alright and then with a wink and a grin, tell us all he’s just an “average” bloke, who likes a pint and a fag. It’s all a nice pipe dream.

Or a reoccurring nightmare 😂😂

Night night

Galaxy

All political parties offer that in some sense though, the idea that Starmer is the person to solve the complex issues facing the NHS is incredibly naive. Why would he be, no one else has achieved that. I say that as a labour voter.

I say that as a Labour voter too, there are some things such as the NHS, social care, mental health initiatives, immigration both legal and illegal ,that are just so big and complex that successive governments haven’t sorted them as yet.

Does anybody believe that Starmer will be able to solve the complex issues facing the NHS though Galaxy? I’ve never seen anybody on here saying so, if they do. I think a lot of us believe the NHS is safer in Labour’s hands, and that there will be improvements in waiting lists and staffing levels, but that’s not quite the same as it all being wonderful under Labour. To quote my mum, we aren’t as green as we’re cabbage looking.

All political parties offer that in some sense though, the idea that Starmer is the person to solve the complex issues facing the NHS is incredibly naive. Why would he be, no one else has achieved that. I say that as a labour voter.

Excellent post Foxie, but so many people want simple answers to complex problems. They want someone who says 'All we need to do is.......' without bothering to ask the questions like 'how'.

It is like the way people come and post on GN when they are looking for a simple way out of a complex situation they are in, because they do not like the only practical solutions available. Then when we can't provide it we never hear from them again.

There are a lot of people like that around and they are the kind of people who vote Reform.

Sunak is far more right wing than people realise.

Dickens
I think that Urmstongran has left the forum for a while.

Yep, nothing wrong with having an agreement on values.
On a slightly different topic I read the other day that the 18 to 24 year olds were the most politically active.Then I found that meant rants on SM and attending marches and rallies but not actual voting where the turnout is pathetically poor.What a shame they don’t bother.

Excellent post foxie48.

I agree with everything you've written.

Thing is, you've given a well thought-out comment - without insulting those that intend to vote for Reform.

I don't think you can persuade people to listen to you by insulting their morals or intelligence. And that's what's been happening on this thread.

If someone is going to change their mind, they need to do it through their own agency, and rational posts like yours are what is needed.

Thanks for an excellent contribution to the debate.

I believe that we are living in dangerous times. Economic instability coupled with (as you point out) politicians giving comparatively simple solutions to complex problems which include inevitably sourcing a scapegoat cannot end well, as history has proved.

But it isn't only Reform that are doing it. Sunak has another target group in his sights if all else fails - those who are under the banner of the sick-note culture.

In some respects, this makes him more dangerous. Because he is well educated and civilised in his manner, he is more acceptable, more believable.

Primrose53

Cossy

Oreo

Dismissing voters views often leads to bad outcomes.France could now end up with Le Pen in control.

I’m not sure we are dismissing voters views, rather questioning them, worried about them and refuting them.

I’ve seen and heard more than enough about Reform’s “rallies”.

They sound and feel “Trumpish@, bordering on “cultish” and frankly I find it scary!

Nobody can ever match Corbyn as the most dangerous man in British politics.

And it’s very apt that Glasto is on this weekend when just a very few years ago, crowds of teenagers and champagne socialists were there chanting “ooh Jeremy Corbyn”. There he was in his Stalin cap lapping it all up and imagining himself in No 10.
He thought it was guaranteed just as many pollsters did.
Look how that turned out! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I think Galloway is coming a close second to Corbyn, and he's already an MP.

I think its good to have some sort of agreement on values, most countries have them, some are similar to ours, some are very different, so for example I think Americas commitment to freedom of speech is different to ours even though we would argue we have freedom of speech. Many countries sadly dont have the values of democracy, individual liberty, etc.

Good post Foxie because it highlights what the speech as copied out in capital letters

misses out utterly and completely what we should be proud of (and want to put right)

- which is Care. As in the Welfare State, our health and social care, and so on.

I thin that's a core value.

Galaxy

Oops. Thanks for clarifying that cossy about support for reform, I thought you meant me, so apologies.

Absolutely no problem, Galaxy. sadly I think topics such as this do bring out the “passion” in many of us and I truly meant nothing personal towards yourself.

I keep telling myself to keep calm, wait until after July 4th and then totally ignoring my own advice 😂😂😂

Oops. Thanks for clarifying that cossy about support for reform, I thought you meant me, so apologies.

Thanks for clarifying th

People may indeed be friendly away from here and some may think neither of the 2 big parties are for them.But lets not beat about the bush, what motivates a person to go down the Farage/Reform route is race and colour.

Some have remarked on Farage's ability as a speaker.

He is articulate and 'commanding' in that respect.

But - only if he's not under personal pressure, and when he is put under pressure he does not perform so well.

And I think he knows it, too.

He's good in the attack position, but he can't play defence very well.

I think the party will lose some female support. Others might not take too kindly to his admiration of Putin and his blaming of the West for upsetting him.

foxie48

The main appeal of Farage/Reform is he gives simple answers to complex problems:
Housing shortage= too many immigrants whereas it's actually too little investment in affordable housing and all that entails eg planning, land costs, profits for building companies, shortage of skilled workers etc etc

Problems getting NHS treatment = too many immigrants whereas 20% of the NHS staff are immmigrants which is far less than the proportion using the service, too many people with co-morbities, an ageing population, a lack of investment etc etc

Dreadful social care= too many immigrants whereas poorly paid immigrants are caring for a great many people, lack of investment, profits made by privatisation of services

Lack of school places - too many immigrants whereas there's actually NOT an overall shortage of school places, we have schools that are underfunded because they have insufficient pupils!

Lack of economic growth= spending too much money on immigrants whereas we have a insufficient labour to increase our economy and are relying on immigrants to keep so many of services running.

I could go on, but basically if you look at Reform's "pledges" it is totally uncosted and I doubt you would find an economist who would validate it. However, it isn't about that is it? It's basically all about immigration, just as UKIP was all about immigration. The simple answer to complex problems, find scapegoats and blame them. This is exactly what Hitler did, he told the German population that all there ills were due to the Jews, got enough to accept that and then made sure anyone else who disagreed was "dealt with".

I completely agree.

I still don’t understand why, why are people supporting Reform when it’s clear to many of us that most of their policies are unworkable and that it all feels very much like Brexit mark 2.

Chocolatelovinggran

Rhetoric about "British Values " seems to suggest that these are not shared by others. Is this true? Are these not the values of people in Denmark? New Zealand? Holland?
Why is this seen by some as purely the prerogative of the Reform Party leadership?

That's a very good question indeed.

The main appeal of Farage/Reform is he gives simple answers to complex problems:
Housing shortage= too many immigrants whereas it's actually too little investment in affordable housing and all that entails eg planning, land costs, profits for building companies, shortage of skilled workers etc etc

Problems getting NHS treatment = too many immigrants whereas 20% of the NHS staff are immmigrants which is far less than the proportion using the service, too many people with co-morbities, an ageing population, a lack of investment etc etc

Dreadful social care= too many immigrants whereas poorly paid immigrants are caring for a great many people, lack of investment, profits made by privatisation of services

Lack of school places - too many immigrants whereas there's actually NOT an overall shortage of school places, we have schools that are underfunded because they have insufficient pupils!

Lack of economic growth= spending too much money on immigrants whereas we have a insufficient labour to increase our economy and are relying on immigrants to keep so many of services running.

I could go on, but basically if you look at Reform's "pledges" it is totally uncosted and I doubt you would find an economist who would validate it. However, it isn't about that is it? It's basically all about immigration, just as UKIP was all about immigration. The simple answer to complex problems, find scapegoats and blame them. This is exactly what Hitler did, he told the German population that all there ills were due to the Jews, got enough to accept that and then made sure anyone else who disagreed was "dealt with".

Galaxy

He was quite successful in mobilising the leave vote.

Indeed he was, he’s a great orator, he is charming and can sell whatsoever to anyone. If I didn’t doubt his (divisive) intentions and ambitions, I’d find him entertaining and amusing, in the same way as I found Johnson entertaining prior to him entering politics.

Chocolatelovinggran

Rhetoric about "British Values " seems to suggest that these are not shared by others. Is this true? Are these not the values of people in Denmark? New Zealand? Holland?
Why is this seen by some as purely the prerogative of the Reform Party leadership?

I don’t think anyone can explain because it’s all a bit of “showmanship”. Some way of illustrating that British people (especially British born people, which rules out both my husband and myself) are somehow more superior to other nations, somehow better, on a higher moral plane.

It plays to people’s ego, ooh look at me, I’m so much better than some non Brit!