PR and other political systems

I think that something that allowed those who constantly come second to have some say would be good. Would a ranking of candidates help towards that? So there could be (say) a Labour government with a Lib Dem presence of some sort - I'm not sure what form that would take - as opposed to a Labour government with the Tories as the main opposition (in an entirely fictional hypothesis)?

I do think the idea that PR would lead to extremism is simplistic, which is why I started the thread, really. Looking back, my O level History teacher was good at getting the interest of otherwise disaffected kids, but he was far from impartial. I had a totally different experience for History A level - he read from bandered notes which was tedious, but gave a more balanced account.

I don't think that moaning now about the results of an election fought under the rules of FPTP is reasonable though. All the parties knew the system, and campaigned with that in mind. If we did change the rules (unlikely, I realise) it would have to be done well in advance of another election.

David49 I totally disagree with you and I stand by my view, which is a view of the Silent Majority in this country.

Doodledog I don't really understand your reasoning about rural areas versus cities. Currently constituencies are based (approximately) on populations, so a densely populated city area is much smaller than a rural constituency, but both still have one MP. For their area, cities are already over-represented.

It would be possible to divide the country up into a number of areas (bigger than current constituencies) all of whom returned a given number of MPs. Everybody would be entitled to a vote, but it would mean that parties which consistently come second (and therefore lose out completely) would have some MPs.

Germany has had PR since the end of WW2, but no party polling less than 5% is entitled to representation, which means that the very smallest parties don't count. The Nazis' rise to power was facilitated by PR and loads of small parties, but it wasn't the only reason. One advantage in post-war Germany and the "list" system is that senior politicians have been in power no matter who the Chancellor is (as a result of coalitions), which has enabled some consistency when governments have changed

The representation issue has been problematic for many years - despite huge majorities . most of the governments since the 70s have polled between 35-43%

I don't remember people wailing about the lack of fairness to Jeremy Corbyn when Theresa May formed the government with 43% and he got many fewer seats with 40%

I also think that in a FPTP system that you cannot assume the voting statistics represent true voting intention. Many people vote tactically and negatively - ie they vote against who they don't want for a "better" party who might win.

makevotesmatter.org.uk/

👍 varian

In a democracy the government can only rule with support of the majority of voters. Sometimes these voters voted for two or more parties which agree to work together.

Under FPTP a government can get an overwhelming majority of MPs although with support of only a minority of voters.

That is NOT democracy.

We do live in a democracy though. All parties knew the system and campaigned within the rules of that system. They may have done things very differently had we had a different one. That doesn't make the result unfair.

How can we pretend to be living in a democracy when a party that wins with a landslide receives only a third of the vote, the lowest ever!
It merely showed a rejection of the Tories.

The FPTP system is outdated and has been abandoned by most European countries.

Deedaa

JudyBloom We knew before the referendum that there would be thousands of EU rules that we would still be bound by, it was one of the many reasons for not leaving. Now we are stuck with the time and expense of trying to unpick it all, bearing in mind that, just because they are EU rules doesn't necessarily mean they have to go.

With Labour having a very large mandate I am expecting much more cooperation with the EU but it’s too early to expect a Customs Union.

Our current rules and standards have not diverged significantly from EU rules yet, we administer them ourselves but little change. If we want easier trading with them we have to accept it’s their rules, probably the biggest obstacle is freedom of movement.

😄🍷

Yes, I think you’re right. One less thing to worry about then 😀

Doodledog

So if people aren't keen on PR, and don't like FPTP, what would work instead? Feel free to invent your own system if there isn't one you like .

I genuinely don't know what I think. I can see that FPTP is not ideal, but I don't think PR is the answer either.

I think you’ve maybe just answered your own question😃
It isn’t perfect but better than PR.Look at the governments of some other European countries, all the infighting within the parties making up the government and never getting many policies through.We should really stick to FPTP.

The rules as they are would be equally fair or unfair whether the losers are lovely kindly saints or evil nasty rotters, as would any new ones, so none of that matters to the discussion.

The point is that we need to fix on a system that represents people from all sorts of different areas (rural, urban, coastal etc) and be fair to all of them. I'm not remotely an expert either, and am trying to trying to understand what might work and what wouldn't. I'm coming to the conclusion that there is no system that is fair to everyone.

JudyBloom We knew before the referendum that there would be thousands of EU rules that we would still be bound by, it was one of the many reasons for not leaving. Now we are stuck with the time and expense of trying to unpick it all, bearing in mind that, just because they are EU rules doesn't necessarily mean they have to go.

“There is nothing wrong with being Populist and Patriotic. Reform are NOT far-right or racist, you have been blindsided. If you watch all their conferences and see their speeches you will see exactly what they are about, “

Who are you kidding, they are much harder line than todays Tory policies, any of their supporters were outspoken which showed their full colours.

JudyBloom FPTP is disadvantageous to small parties and always has been. This is nothing new or specific to Reform. The Lib Dems and the Greens have suffered for years. The Greens still do.

Doodledog I think the ranking of candidates would appeal to voters. I gather that operating STV is very complex so may not be suitable for large elections. I’m no expert and have no intention of becoming one 😂

Reform have become so popular that if we had PR they would have had about 100 seats. The system at the moment is totally unfair. The mainstream media, the BBC and the establishment like to disparage Nigel Farage because they know he tells the truth and wants to put the British people first, he speaks for the Silent Majority in this country who just want their country back. There is nothing wrong with being Populist and Patriotic. Reform are NOT far-right or racist, you have been blindsided. If you watch all their conferences and see their speeches you will see exactly what they are about, Ann Widdecombe gives a really good speech. You will see they are the party of common sense and decency. They have a Muslim, Zia Yuself, as a big donater, how can that make them racist. This slandering has to stop. It is unfair. At least Reform now have 5 seats so they are on the ladder to challenge the dreaded Labour and they have five years to get this country back on track and restore some decency and get rid of the woke nonsense and also leave the ECHR which isn't fit for purpose. They want proper immigration not illegal, putting us all at risk. Well done Nigel and team. At least they are not frightened of standing up for what is right and will fight against the corrupt infiltration of the left. It's high time we had a party that has proper conservative values and works for the people. Remember that, they should do what we voted for and we have been betrayed. Did you know we are still tied to over 6,000 EU rules - it is a disgrace. If Brexit had been done properly we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. Mark my words!

winterwhite

No one has mentioned STV (single alternative vote).

You have

Do you think it would work?

No one has mentioned STV (single alternative vote).

So if people aren't keen on PR, and don't like FPTP, what would work instead? Feel free to invent your own system if there isn't one you like .

I genuinely don't know what I think. I can see that FPTP is not ideal, but I don't think PR is the answer either.

Why is FPTP any different where so many have no power at all?

We saw a small party holding the government to ransom recently, the Unionists preventing May from getting a Brexit deal, currently the religious parties in Israel insisting on extreme policies. Other countries have very unstable governments because coalitions do not last.

Same here Doodle. We were always given Italy as an example of PR where governments came and went in a matter of months, as successive weak governments were elected and defeated.
Reform would have done very well had we not had FPTP - far from an ideal situation.