PR and other political systems

Just think how many seats Reform would get on a PR system, no thanks, the existing system isn’t perfect but better than extremist parties of all shapes getting elected.

Our system is an outlier in most of Europe, where some form of PR is used.
This election has shown how ridiculously unfair the FPTP system is.

The Labour Party received just 34% of the vote, the lowest ever I believe, and got 412 seats. They had almost the same share of the vote in 2019 and only got 214 seats!

Whether you favour ReformUK or not, they got 14.3% of the vote and only 4 seats.
Lib Dem’s 12.2% of the vote and 71 seats…….

Why? It doesn’t make sense and means we will always have our awful 2 party system.

David49

Just think how many seats Reform would get on a PR system, no thanks, the existing system isn’t perfect but better than extremist parties of all shapes getting elected.

That ties in with my school History teacher's analysis. I don't know though. Wouldn't they be watered down by other outliers? There has to be someone in charge though - I was once part of a co-operative where everyone had to agree before anything could be done, and it was a nightmare.

As I say, the main problem for me is that it will be difficult to represent everyone if there are more voters in some areas than others, which will always be the case.

David49

Just think how many seats Reform would get on a PR system, no thanks, the existing system isn’t perfect but better than extremist parties of all shapes getting elected.

Oh you mean the partisan lot in Birmingham who harassed Jess Phillips, as she narrowly defeated a far left palestinian supporting Galloway, thank goodness., Yes I know what you mean. Vile anti semitic creatures.

Is there any chance that this thread could stick to discussing PR, and not descend into nastiness. Please?

You nearly always end up with a coalition with PR systems - which leads to a lot of negotiations where the party you voted for may negotiate away key policies for a shot of power - like the Lib Dems did in 2010 when they supported the Cameron austerity government.

Sometimes countries can be without a government for a long time if post election negotiations are tricky - for example Sweden was without a government for over 4 months (129 days) in 2018 as neither right or left had a clear majority and there were a lot of negotiations to win over extra support.

Sometimes it gives undue power to very tiny parties - for example if one side needs 4-5 MPs to get over the line to a majority suddenly the tiny and/or regional parties can hold balance of power (Green, Plaid Cymru, SNP, NI, Independents etc). They know their power and often threaten to flounce as a way of gaining concessions. These multi-party coalitions can be unstable and it is difficult to know who to hold to account for decisions.

Same here Doodle. We were always given Italy as an example of PR where governments came and went in a matter of months, as successive weak governments were elected and defeated.
Reform would have done very well had we not had FPTP - far from an ideal situation.

We saw a small party holding the government to ransom recently, the Unionists preventing May from getting a Brexit deal, currently the religious parties in Israel insisting on extreme policies. Other countries have very unstable governments because coalitions do not last.

Why is FPTP any different where so many have no power at all?

So if people aren't keen on PR, and don't like FPTP, what would work instead? Feel free to invent your own system if there isn't one you like .

I genuinely don't know what I think. I can see that FPTP is not ideal, but I don't think PR is the answer either.

No one has mentioned STV (single alternative vote).

winterwhite

No one has mentioned STV (single alternative vote).

You have

Do you think it would work?

Reform have become so popular that if we had PR they would have had about 100 seats. The system at the moment is totally unfair. The mainstream media, the BBC and the establishment like to disparage Nigel Farage because they know he tells the truth and wants to put the British people first, he speaks for the Silent Majority in this country who just want their country back. There is nothing wrong with being Populist and Patriotic. Reform are NOT far-right or racist, you have been blindsided. If you watch all their conferences and see their speeches you will see exactly what they are about, Ann Widdecombe gives a really good speech. You will see they are the party of common sense and decency. They have a Muslim, Zia Yuself, as a big donater, how can that make them racist. This slandering has to stop. It is unfair. At least Reform now have 5 seats so they are on the ladder to challenge the dreaded Labour and they have five years to get this country back on track and restore some decency and get rid of the woke nonsense and also leave the ECHR which isn't fit for purpose. They want proper immigration not illegal, putting us all at risk. Well done Nigel and team. At least they are not frightened of standing up for what is right and will fight against the corrupt infiltration of the left. It's high time we had a party that has proper conservative values and works for the people. Remember that, they should do what we voted for and we have been betrayed. Did you know we are still tied to over 6,000 EU rules - it is a disgrace. If Brexit had been done properly we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. Mark my words!

Doodledog I think the ranking of candidates would appeal to voters. I gather that operating STV is very complex so may not be suitable for large elections. I’m no expert and have no intention of becoming one 😂

JudyBloom FPTP is disadvantageous to small parties and always has been. This is nothing new or specific to Reform. The Lib Dems and the Greens have suffered for years. The Greens still do.

“There is nothing wrong with being Populist and Patriotic. Reform are NOT far-right or racist, you have been blindsided. If you watch all their conferences and see their speeches you will see exactly what they are about, “

Who are you kidding, they are much harder line than todays Tory policies, any of their supporters were outspoken which showed their full colours.

JudyBloom We knew before the referendum that there would be thousands of EU rules that we would still be bound by, it was one of the many reasons for not leaving. Now we are stuck with the time and expense of trying to unpick it all, bearing in mind that, just because they are EU rules doesn't necessarily mean they have to go.

The rules as they are would be equally fair or unfair whether the losers are lovely kindly saints or evil nasty rotters, as would any new ones, so none of that matters to the discussion.

The point is that we need to fix on a system that represents people from all sorts of different areas (rural, urban, coastal etc) and be fair to all of them. I'm not remotely an expert either, and am trying to trying to understand what might work and what wouldn't. I'm coming to the conclusion that there is no system that is fair to everyone.

Doodledog

So if people aren't keen on PR, and don't like FPTP, what would work instead? Feel free to invent your own system if there isn't one you like .

I genuinely don't know what I think. I can see that FPTP is not ideal, but I don't think PR is the answer either.

I think you’ve maybe just answered your own question😃
It isn’t perfect but better than PR.Look at the governments of some other European countries, all the infighting within the parties making up the government and never getting many policies through.We should really stick to FPTP.

Yes, I think you’re right. One less thing to worry about then 😀

😄🍷

Deedaa

JudyBloom We knew before the referendum that there would be thousands of EU rules that we would still be bound by, it was one of the many reasons for not leaving. Now we are stuck with the time and expense of trying to unpick it all, bearing in mind that, just because they are EU rules doesn't necessarily mean they have to go.

With Labour having a very large mandate I am expecting much more cooperation with the EU but it’s too early to expect a Customs Union.

Our current rules and standards have not diverged significantly from EU rules yet, we administer them ourselves but little change. If we want easier trading with them we have to accept it’s their rules, probably the biggest obstacle is freedom of movement.

How can we pretend to be living in a democracy when a party that wins with a landslide receives only a third of the vote, the lowest ever!
It merely showed a rejection of the Tories.

The FPTP system is outdated and has been abandoned by most European countries.

We do live in a democracy though. All parties knew the system and campaigned within the rules of that system. They may have done things very differently had we had a different one. That doesn't make the result unfair.