Boxer forces female competitor to quit at the Olympic games [Title edited by GNHQ at poster's request]

Perhaps Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting should fight each other
They are both ‘women’ so no problems !!!

Beverley your summary of the situation is excellent. To satisfy doubters please cite your source or sources for this. Obviously, GN is not an academic site so it shouldn't be necessary but here we are!

BeverleyJB

I've tried to explain my understanding (as a lay person) from the research I've done in the hope that it's helpful. But of course you are all free to research for yourselves…..

The tests undertaken by the IBA on Khelif were not “gender tests” (whatever those may be) or hormonal tests, but genetic ones. Those tests determined that Khelif had XY chromosomes and, as a consequence, the IBA - which does not agree that men should be in a boxing ring with women, and has reaffirmed today 01/08/2024, that it will continue to protect women boxers - determined the he, as a male, should not take part in women's boxing.

Khelif has XY chromosomes, so is biologically male (whatever it may say on his passport, whatever clothes he was given to wear when a child, or whatever pronouns he chooses.) Human sex is immutable.

Algérie Football Média account (which supports Khelif) on X has stated that he has a genetic condition “like” Semenya, who is 46 XY with 5alpha reductase deficiency (5ARD). I have no way of testing if what AFM has said is true, but given its support of Khelif (and criticism of those who don't support him) it is more likely than not that what they have said is correct.

46 XY 5ARD is a genetic condition that only males have. (Confirmed in the article in the link posted above). Importantly, it does NOT affect the body's sensitivity to testosterone. In simple terms, males with 5ARD go through male puberty and, consequently, have the same physical and physiological advantages over females as a result of that as other males.

If Khelif has 5ARD then he is male and his testosterone levels are not ‘abnormally high’ I as incorrectly reported, including by the BBC, (which is routinely pro anything ‘trans’ related and anti-women) because he has normal levels of testosterone for a man.

Having seen the look on Khelif's face after the fight, in my view he knew exactly what he had done. There are numerous photos of him on the internet wearing typically male clothing and even one in a boxing gym standing next to a young female boxer, who is wearing a hijab. So I don't even believe that Khelif “lives as” a woman at all. He's a man and no sportsman, simply a cheat of the worst kind.

We should remember the important reasons why women's sports were segregated in the first place. The IOC should hang its head in shame - it should not be allowing women's sport to be destroyed in this way.

Women are not punching bags for mediocre men, nor are we here to provide validation or emotional support for inadequate or narcissistic men.

You need to site your sources for these claims . These days responsible and fair reporting is dubious as it can be sourced from fake or dubious news sources .

I find this thread very depressing.
As Galaxy and others have said the two women who this "trans" controversy is about are not transgender. They have both been brought up and have competed as women for many years.
They have won and lost to women.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

There are no trans women at this year’s Olympics. There are two nonbinary athletes competing in their assigned sex at birth category, but no trans women.
(MSNBC)

Thank you BeverleyJB

Basically, she is condemned to never compete in any physical sport because of this. She could not compete against males, could she?

Why not? This person is biologically male.

Excellent post Beverley.

Beverley 👍🏻

I've tried to explain my understanding (as a lay person) from the research I've done in the hope that it's helpful. But of course you are all free to research for yourselves…..

The tests undertaken by the IBA on Khelif were not “gender tests” (whatever those may be) or hormonal tests, but genetic ones. Those tests determined that Khelif had XY chromosomes and, as a consequence, the IBA - which does not agree that men should be in a boxing ring with women, and has reaffirmed today 01/08/2024, that it will continue to protect women boxers - determined the he, as a male, should not take part in women's boxing.

Khelif has XY chromosomes, so is biologically male (whatever it may say on his passport, whatever clothes he was given to wear when a child, or whatever pronouns he chooses.) Human sex is immutable.

Algérie Football Média account (which supports Khelif) on X has stated that he has a genetic condition “like” Semenya, who is 46 XY with 5alpha reductase deficiency (5ARD). I have no way of testing if what AFM has said is true, but given its support of Khelif (and criticism of those who don't support him) it is more likely than not that what they have said is correct.

46 XY 5ARD is a genetic condition that only males have. (Confirmed in the article in the link posted above). Importantly, it does NOT affect the body's sensitivity to testosterone. In simple terms, males with 5ARD go through male puberty and, consequently, have the same physical and physiological advantages over females as a result of that as other males.

If Khelif has 5ARD then he is male and his testosterone levels are not ‘abnormally high’ I as incorrectly reported, including by the BBC, (which is routinely pro anything ‘trans’ related and anti-women) because he has normal levels of testosterone for a man.

Having seen the look on Khelif's face after the fight, in my view he knew exactly what he had done. There are numerous photos of him on the internet wearing typically male clothing and even one in a boxing gym standing next to a young female boxer, who is wearing a hijab. So I don't even believe that Khelif “lives as” a woman at all. He's a man and no sportsman, simply a cheat of the worst kind.

We should remember the important reasons why women's sports were segregated in the first place. The IOC should hang its head in shame - it should not be allowing women's sport to be destroyed in this way.

Women are not punching bags for mediocre men, nor are we here to provide validation or emotional support for inadequate or narcissistic men.

Agreed, totally.

The bbc news I listen to has been very clear about the complexity about this boxer. More straightforward issues about athletes who went through puberty as male mustn’t be allowed to be dismissed

www.infantjournal.co.uk/pdf/inf_033_can.pdf

really worth a read.

Rosie51

Fleurpepper
Khelif’s biological profile presents a nuanced situation. Born female and identifying as a woman, she appears to have a condition known as differences of sex development (DSD). This condition would explain her XY chromosomes and higher testosterone levels — traits typically associated with male athletes.

There is absolutely nothing nuanced about it. The DSD 5ARD is only ever present in males, those with XY chromosomes. Someone with 5ARD is not a female, never was a female and never will be female. All DSDs are sex specific and only ever present in one of the sexes. It is hard on those who were mis-sexed at birth, but that doesn't excuse or give reason to cheat and disadvantage competitors.

It doesn't matter how often the truth is denied it persists in being the truth.

Well I agree it is a complicated situation. But this person was attributed female sex for a reason. She does not have male genitalia, and not because she chose to have them ablated as identifying as female in adulthood. She is in no way responsible for what happened during her embryo development, or the fact her sex was not clear at birth and she was officially deemed female.

Basically, she is condemned to never compete in any physical sport because of this. She could not compete against males, could she?

All I am saying is that a lot of nonsense has been told about her, and she has been totally wrongly accused of being trans and playing the system. A massive 'nuance' indeed.

I heard Lisa Nandy interviewed on radio 4. She was imo, considered, calm, sensible. She acknowledged biology matters and stated there is a role for government in these decisions relating to sport

I do not believe adult or child human females should compete with men in sports like swimming, cycling, running or boxing to name a few. Equestrian sports - bring it on

It is a scientific fact that that males have XY chromosomes and females have XX chromosomes.

Anything else is simply emperors new clothes

It's fine cossy you didnt mislead me. I was talking to Maggie it's my fault for being too lazy to quote.

Galaxy

I have no idea about the person you are talking about, but do you mean the truth is dependent on what people have been through in their lives? You cant believe that surely.

That’s not what I meant at all, sorry if my message misled you.

Essentially I’m talking about opinions v facts.

We are all entitled to view our opinions, our personal opinions/views are going to be shaped by many things including our life experiences.

Anyone’s personal opinions and views are valid, but it doesn’t make them facts.

Aveline

Hmmm very feminine. Not!

What’s wrong with you? That’s nasty and unnecessary.

Galaxy

Thankyou cossy for that statement, it was pouring water on the fire so to speak. I think it's of course fine for us to agree to disagree but sport needs clear guidelines.

I agree, there have to be clear rules and these to be applied.

This situation however seems far from clear.

Besides which, imho it’s been a very unpleasant thread on what is an increasingly unpleasant site.

Maggiemaybe

So would you say this person (with x and y chromosomes) is a man?

www.standard.co.uk/news/world/top-vogue-fashion-model-hanne-gaby-odiele-reveals-she-is-intersex-a3448601.html

Yes. That looks like a male face, to my eye. To be honest, I stopped reading when I go to this nonsense. In Ms Odiele’s case, she was born with undescended testicles due to androgen insensitivity syndrome, which causes girls to have male XY chromosomes.

That is so unscientific that anyone believing it probably thinks the moon is made of blue cheese. Whether you have XY or XX chromosomes is determined by the sperm that fertilised the ova, nothing else.

Very true, Callistemon. And I sympathise with each and every one of them too if it’s what they wanted.

But hey, I’m out, Cossy is quite right. We know next to nothing and possibly never will.

Hmmm very feminine. Not!

I have no idea of their history except for that one article. To be honest sex matters in only some areas of society, sport being one of them. So if that person has a dsd that only impacts males then they would be ineligible for womens sports. Its what happened with the CS ruling ( I know the rulings have been made and then retracted). Obviously these issues are irrelevant for a model or a plumber or many other professions.

Maggiemaybe

Really, Calli? Would you say that to her? After reading about all that she’s been through?

Lots of women cannot have children for many reasons.