Immigrants and expats

Urmstongran

Sterling is and has been doing well against the euro for years. Fact.

woo de do.

Maybe the difference is ( apart form colour) an expat can go " home".

Sterling is and has been doing well against the euro for years. Fact.

Disgusting.

No wonder Cadeby. Ch4 news interviewed a lawyer who specialises in immigration. His name, business and home address have been published by a right wing group. He woke his wife and children to get them to a safe address. He wept when he talked about feeling unsafe and considering leaving this country

I know many Muslims are very frightened. The people I know in my middle class suburb are staying at home if they possibly can.
Of course, I can see that life goes on as normal , but they are frightened to go out.

👏👏👏
Living in a multi cultural city, and reading some posts in here, I sometimes think I am living in a different universe. Hearing test, doctor, supermarket worker, SW carers... and so on. Just trying to get on with life.

Fleurpepper

TerriBull 'The distinction between an ex-pat and an immigrant, as I always understood it, is this, an ex pat is a person who goes to another country generally for work but intends to return to their home country at some stage. An immigrant is a person who leaves their home country to settle in another'

this really does not work in many cases. I know so many 'expats' who moved for a year or two, and then remained for many more. Quite a few forever, and often acquired a second nationality.

And yes, I know that this will drive Aveline spare, but this much more so since 'you know what, since 2016. As going back lost its attractivity, to say the least. For many, also because of massive concerns about healthcare and the state of the NHS, and loss of free movement.

Thanks Doodledog for your thoughtful, reflective post. the faith expectation about Muslims wearing clothes that indicate their faith can result in them being seen as ‘other’. Similar accusations can be made about some Jewish communities, particularly Hasidic, or more orthodox Jewish people.

I changed my library books earlier, the librarian was new to me, she usually works in the central town centre library. She was sad they had to close early because of a visit by the EDL. She said as a religious women, she believed it to be Gods will that she was born here, in our safe ciuntry, not in Afghanistan or Syria, where most of our towns asylum seekers come from. She felt fortunate but said and I agree with her that being born in one place doesn’t make you superior to others born in a less secure country

Oh yes, she was a Muslim, wearing a hijab and modest clothing.

And low salaries and dropping Sterling values.

TerriBull 'The distinction between an ex-pat and an immigrant, as I always understood it, is this, an ex pat is a person who goes to another country generally for work but intends to return to their home country at some stage. An immigrant is a person who leaves their home country to settle in another'

this really does not work in many cases. I know so many 'expats' who moved for a year or two, and then remained for many more. Quite a few forever, and often acquired a second nationality.

And yes, I know that this will drive Aveline spare, but this much more so since 'you know what, since 2016. As going back lost its attractivity, to say the least. For many, also because of massive concerns about healthcare and the state of the NHS, and loss of free movement.

This thread was never about brexit but since so many still desperately try to defend it, try looking at facts, not the opinion of right-wing brexiters like Andrew Neil.

"Average Briton was nearly £2,000 worse off in 2023, while the average Londoner was nearly £3,400 worse off last year as a result of Brexit, the report reveals.* It also calculates that there are nearly two million fewer jobs overall in the UK due to Brexit – with almost 300,000 fewer jobs in the capital alone."

www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit#:~:text=The%20new%20report%2C%20by%20Cambridge,of%20Brexit%2C%20the%20report%20reveals.

Aveline, I have also read that the UK is doing better than the countries still in the EU.

Oh God not Brexit again. Andrew Neil had interesting things to say about it. Seems UK is doing pretty well compared to some EU countries.

Witzend

maddyone

Can we stop banging on about Brexit please. I voted for remain, but I’m fed up of people moaning about Brexit. It’s happened and we have to accept it.

Hear hear!

You have heard about 'democracy' I hope.

As long as a decision of the past affects me, my family and friends and the country, in a very significant way- the fight to stop the damage remains. Simple.

dotpocka

stupid people have no idea that jesus in the quran
a messiah just
not the son of god
The Quran is the sacred scripture of Islam, and in it, more than ninety verses spread across fifteen chapters discuss Jesus.

Jesus rose from the dead.
Christians believe this with their heart and souls.

I am not aware that Mus lims do.
Nor any other Religion.

Thank you doodledog for a thoughtful and well written post.
Biglouis , your sarcasm says alot about you, absolutely uncalled for .

Yes, agreed Terribull, that was exactly my definition of expat upthread. When DH was doing consultancy in Holland and Switzerland I met some of the expat wives in the companies concerned. It seemed like a very boring and restricted world.

Generally better off as expat workers abroad but not always. Remember "Auf Weidersehen Pet?"

Yes 'expat' definitely sounds more privileged than 'immigrant'. Both probably factually correct though. Can you be an 'illegal expat'? Doubt it.

* in a less privileged position

Thank you Rosie51. I will remember to put ^ .... ^ around each individual paragraph. What a palaver!

Interesting post from TerriBull too. So, in that case, an "expat" was probably a fairly well paid professional working abroad. Whereas an "immigrant" might be in a less privileged which ties in with Doodledog's description a bit, in her 2nd paragraph. The word "immigrant" then becomes somewhat more demeaning, though once they are working and in the system, there is little difference.

Thank you Doodledog.Your post was interesting and thoughtful and certainly didn't merit the sarcastic critique.

maddyone

Can we stop banging on about Brexit please. I voted for remain, but I’m fed up of people moaning about Brexit. It’s happened and we have to accept it.

Hear hear!

Doodledog

Aveline

These other nationalities and faiths somehow keep a lower profile?

I'm not a psychologist, but I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, and these are what passes for my 'explanations'.

Islam asks its adherents to declare their faith in their clothing, and the more religious Muslims adhere to laws about food and prayer, so they stand out more in Western society than those whose religion or lack of one don't make them stand out. There are those who dislike difference of any kind. Maybe because they are unhappy with themselves and prefer people to be like them so they feel 'normal? Who knows? They can't pick on people who look like them, or who have the same accent, as their differences aren't immediately apparent, and on the whole the bullies aren't usually very bright, so they concentrate on hating those who are more obviously different. Like the kids who pick on the boy with glasses or ginger hair, or the fat girl with spots. Then they blame the victims for 'making them do it'. They have the gall to be/look/behave/dress differently from me, and I am NORMAL, honestly, I am, so 'they' can't be normal, and therefore it's ok to pick on 'them', and if you want to be thought normal you have to be on my side.

That's one reason, I think. Another is that Muslims are sometimes in communities of relatively recent immigrants, which are concentrated in poorer areas of the country. Even in rich cities, the new arrivals tend to live in the grottier areas. Those areas still house people 'left behind' when neighbours moved out to better-off suburbs and they can feel overwhelmed when the local shops no longer cater to them, or the customs of their own culture no longer prevail. Jellied eels and t shirts give way to kebabs and saris. Despite the fact that Muslims make up something like 6% of the population, in some areas they are in the majority, and that is the lived experience of the 'indigenous' people living amongst them.

Finally, there are people who just like having someone to look down on. Whether it's 'her next door' whose nets aren't white enough, or 'poor so and so' whose husband drinks, or the ones who 'aren't what they should be' for 'having to get married', those with tattoos or big TVs - there will always be some reason why some see other people as lesser. It's in their nature. Maybe it's just that nobody wants to be at the bottom of the pile - there is a hierarchy amongst prisoners, druggies and alcoholics - and maybe some people are just judgemental. I don't know, but I think that explains some of it too.

I'm sure there are other reasons-that-aren't-reasons-but-excuses (eg in This Is England, Combo hates Milky because he's from a Jamaican family whose culture is supportive and close, and he (Combo) is from a criminally dysfunctional English family). Individuals will have their individual prejudices, but mostly I think they are rooted in jealousy, fear of being 'at the bottom', a desperate need to be 'normal' and in the dominant group, and a more generally bullying personality. In most cases these prejudices are probably buried and kept below the surface, so when the likes of Tommy Robinson comes along with a slogan or confirmation of the prejudice it isn't challenged.

As I say, that is just my thoughts, and has no basis in anything other than my musings. I'm sure wiser people will be able to shoot it down, and that's fine. I have no idea about solutions, and they are the important thing, really.

Once again I find your post very interesting Doodledog. It attempts to get down to the root of the problems of xenophobia and racism in a very thoughtful way; I, for one, appreciate it and think it makes a lot of sense.

The distinction between an ex-pat and an immigrant, as I always understood it, is this, an ex pat is a person who goes to another country generally for work but intends to return to their home country at some stage. An immigrant is a person who leaves their home country to settle in another. I nearly became an ex-pat myself, when my ex husband, an immigrant, before he got citizenship, working for an American bank, got offered a position in Saudi. In the end we decided neither of us would want to live in an ex-pat compound without so much as a glass of wine with certain things we took for granted prohibited. I nearly became an immigrant when we applied to and got visas, for Australia, but after a time there, as lovely as that country is, we decided it was not for us.

I have one grandparent who was an immigrant and several great grandparents. I think by marrying British nationals they tended not to live in enclaves which were separate, maybe that's the answer, straddle two cultures. Although I think it's fair to say with a lot of immigrant enclaves, maybe where religion doesn't bind them quite so tightly, second generationers become more integrated. When my grandfather came to this country just after WW1, the break with the parent country was kind of absolute, means of communication were really just by letter, now there isn't that inevitable delay. For example My father and his siblings never got to meet their paternal grandparents, by the time the war was over and overseas travel a little more accessible the grandparents were dead.

Joseann sorry to deflect from the thread but the reason your quote didn't entirely italicise is because you have to put ^ around each paragraph, not just the beginning and end of your quote. You needed ^ after boomer and ^ before Sadly.

I'm not wise enough to suggest solutions to the other problems this thread is attempting to address.