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False information and incitement on SM and prosecuting the perpetrators

(319 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Aug-24 03:21:40

Since January, an amendment to the Online Safety Act 2023 allows for the prosecution of those who convey information that they know to be false and “if the person intended the message, or the information in it, to cause non-trivial psychological or physical harm to a likely audience”.
Ashley Fairbrother, a senior prosecutor at the law firm Edmonds Marshall McMahon, said: “This now makes the circulation of damaging and false information online into an offence in its own right.”

A former director of public prosecutions, Lord Ken Macdonald KC, spelled out on Monday how he believed investigators would want to quickly identify individuals who are involved in “online organisation, online incitement and online conspiracies”.
“I think prosecutors will want to have a strategy to identify people who may have been involved in inciting and encouraging these events, and they will want to arrest them and build cases against them. These are, in one sense, the most important people,”

Oreo Tue 06-Aug-24 13:09:48

MayBee70

Oreo

IDGTH about anyone’s sleeping patterns or when they choose to post a comment, that’s their business, but I do care about posters telling others what they shouldn’t comment on.
More power to the Police’s elbow for prosecuting real hate speech and incitement to others online.There is nothing on GN remotely like this, and it does need saying.

So why did they feel the need to remove one thread?

What thread was that as I have no idea? Am guessing it had become spat after spat between posters, that’s the usual reason for pulling a thread.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Aug-24 13:07:09

Tommy Robinson

Images of Tommy Robinson using his phone while sunbathing in Cyprus as a Rotherham hotel housing asylum seekers was set alight have prompted outrage among those long concerned about his ability to inspire far-right action, even from a distance.
Yet while he has long seemed able to operate with impunity, events may finally be catching up with the man who first rose to prominence in 2009 as the de facto leader of the now defunct English Defence League (EDL).
Far from being powerless to pursue Robinson, new legislation means the authorities may be able to move more easily against those who share damaging information online that they know to be untrue.
Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, is already known to be among those who are being looked at by police for their alleged role in disseminating disinformation.

Aside from tackling Robinson over his online output, anti-racism activists have long suggested a role for the taxman, given the questions surrounding the seemingly lavish lifestyle enjoyed by Robinson and the often opaque financial arrangements that have underpinned his self-styled reinvention as a “journalist” in recent years.
Hope Not Hate, which campaigns against racism and fascism, called on HMRC to investigate the business affairs of Robinson, who declared himself bankrupt in a high court trial in 2021 in which he was ordered to pay £100,000 in libel damages to a Syrian schoolboy he defamed online.
Robinson has periodically had to overcome challenges in maintaining funding. He was banned from using PayPal in 2018 and Facebook also took action after it was alerted to how he was using donation tools designed for charities to raise funds for his activism.
But he has also been able to maintain and cultivate international ties, not least with rightwingers in the US and Canada. The Guardian previously revealed how he has relied on an international network of wealthy bankers and receives donations from across the globe.
These days, Robinson claims to be an employee of Urban Scoop, which styles itself as an independent media company but which heavily promotes his political worldview. It asks for direct donations through its website and via multiple methods of cryptocurrency.
On Monday Robinson was also “sacked” by his British Muslim tax adviser after she accused him of instigating far-right riots, the Daily Mail reported.
Jesminara Rahman, a former HMRC tax inspector, told Robinson that she no longer wanted his money, as he was “destroying” the country. She said: “I don’t want to work with him any more. His deposit has been returned.”
Joe Mulhall, the director of research at Hope Not Hate, said: “We have known for many years that Stephen Lennon has received potentially millions of pounds in donations, fed through a dizzying array of companies, none of which appear to have filed tax returns.
“As well as using this money to organise events and spread his hateful politics, it has funded an extraordinarily lavish lifestyle. Despite declaring himself bankrupt after admitting to squandering vast sums on gambling, drinking and partying, he continues to live a life of luxury in a variety of expensive villas and top-end hotels. We have been calling for Lennon’s finances to be investigated for some time and now.”

Wyllow3 Tue 06-Aug-24 13:03:49

To repeat, it was not on the BBC News live nor on I Player.

If it was repeated by the presenter on news night then it was clearly incorrect, reporting from the DM article, and should be put right on the next newsnight.

I'm not greatly bothered by the difference between a luxury villa and a luxury 5* hotel, tbh.

Its what he is saying and how he is acting that matters.

Chocolatelovinggran Tue 06-Aug-24 13:02:50

So, I was mistaken in understanding Mr Robinson to be in Spain. He is , it seems, in Cyprus.
No doubt he is busy learning Greek, looking for work, volunteering etc as he is an immigrant and keen to integrate.

MayBee70 Tue 06-Aug-24 13:01:57

Oreo

IDGTH about anyone’s sleeping patterns or when they choose to post a comment, that’s their business, but I do care about posters telling others what they shouldn’t comment on.
More power to the Police’s elbow for prosecuting real hate speech and incitement to others online.There is nothing on GN remotely like this, and it does need saying.

So why did they feel the need to remove one thread?

Oreo Tue 06-Aug-24 12:59:25

IDGTH about anyone’s sleeping patterns or when they choose to post a comment, that’s their business, but I do care about posters telling others what they shouldn’t comment on.
More power to the Police’s elbow for prosecuting real hate speech and incitement to others online.There is nothing on GN remotely like this, and it does need saying.

tickingbird Tue 06-Aug-24 12:55:27

MaixieD

It was on the front page of the Daily Mail a day or two ago. 😮.
With photos and Robinson quoted as being cross that his privacy with his family had been disturbed.

So, where is he, then?

Try reading instead of rushing .

He’s in Cyprus at a hotel as the mail tracked him down.

He isn’t in his MULTI MILLION POUND VILLA. That’s the point and it’s what the oh so accurate BBC were stating several times with the emphasis on the the very expensive villa he isn’t in and doesn’t own.

If accuracy and facts are so important to you then apply same to everyone.

Wyllow3 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:49:05

Thank you LucyAnna I hope lot of others join in.

LucyAnna2 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:44:54

.

LucyAnna2 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:44:19

Good responses from Rory Stewart and Armando Iannucci re Elon Musk suggesting the UK is on the brink of civil war

Wyllow3 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:43:33

Cross posted Maizie I hadn't read yours as busy looking things up. I think whatever out personal opinions its valuable to see what different POV/information is being offered.

Wyllow3 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:41:41

Re the "Tommy Robinson was inciting riots whilst relaxing in his multi million pound villa in Cyprus".

It was reported in the DM on Monday, the Independent, not BBC I player: then it was corrected that it's actually a luxury £400 a night hotel.

It was his own online pictures of gym selfies that helped ID where he was,

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tommy-robinson-riots-edl-twitter-cyprus-holiday-b2591732.html

If you hit a paywall go to
uk.news.yahoo.com/tommy-robinson-gave-away-hiding-153200078.html

(Details also given of a film he made whilst there asking for money)

More to the point, he continues to post a running commentary and videos documenting the riots, describing the disorder as a result of “legitimate concerns” and calling for “mass deportations”.

In terms of which MM to go to for sources, it's what is available that's not behind a paywall.

Mamie Tue 06-Aug-24 12:36:47

Oh come on WWM2 we all know you had nipped out to GUM in Red Square for caviar and vodka. 😂😂😂
I think the early hours wake-up time is also called petit matin?

MaizieD Tue 06-Aug-24 12:34:59

watched Newsnight last night and two people including the presenter stated several times that Tommy Robinson was inciting riots whilst relaxing in his multi million pound villa in Cyprus. He’s staying in a hotel. They stated this several times. It’s not true but that’s the BBC.

It was on the front page of the Daily Mail a day or two ago. 😮.
With photos and Robinson quoted as being cross that his privacy with his family had been disturbed.

So, where is he, then?

Boz Tue 06-Aug-24 12:33:41

Dickens

Boz

Dickens

Kandinsky

Time of posting was seen as a big red flag during the Brexit debates on mumsnet - anyone posting pro brexit posts in the early hours of the morning was called a Russian Bot. I didn’t agree tbh but that’s what was happening.
But I do think it’s a bit odd, if you’re living in the UK, to be C&P’ing articles from the guardian at 3’ O’clock in the morning.

But I do think it’s a bit odd, if you’re living in the UK, to be C&P’ing articles from the guardian at 3’ O’clock in the morning.

It's unusual I grant you.

You say it's "odd". I've been known to do online banking in the early hours of the morning when I couldn't sleep as well as pinging off emails to various people.

Explain it to me. This 'oddness'.

Perhaps it it more 'screen addiction', which we all, to some degree, have.
If I am awake in the night I make a strong effort to not start glaring at a screen because the brain becomes active and you may not be able to get back to sleep.

Perhaps it it more 'screen addiction', which we all, to some degree, have.
If I am awake in the night I make a strong effort to not start glaring at a screen because the brain becomes active and you may not be able to get back to sleep.

I completely agree. The brain most certainly does become active and I think it's documented that it makes it difficult to get back to sleep.

Social media is I think to some extent part of all our lives now. I don't know if it's an addiction or if it's taken the place of the long-gone meet ups with friends in the pub or coffee shop, or chats on the 'phone with friends. And certainly for those, like me, who are mostly housebound looking after a disabled OH, it's definitely a kind of replacement interaction.

But I do not accept that it's odd to be posting at 3 am in the morning - or any time during the night hours. As you the age 8 hour's sleep format often goes right out the window. Illness, aches and pains, worries, being a carer for a spouse, etc - all these things often keep us up, or waken us during the night. My grandmother, when she couldn't sleep, used to get up, make tea and polish shoes. She might have been on GN too if it had existed in the 1940s, who knows!

Has anyone read Robert Harris's Second Sleep? He purports that during the middle ages it was common to split the night into two halves; getting up; even strolling about outside. I 'd like to bet it wasn't the labouring classes who had to be up at dawn!

MayBee70 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:33:40

When Ekirch expanded his search to include online databases of other written records, it soon became clear the phenomenon was more widespread and normalised than he had ever imagined.

For a start, first sleeps are mentioned in one of the most famous works of medieval literature, Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales (written between 1387 and 1400), which is presented as a storytelling contest between a group of pilgrims. They're also included in the poet William Baldwin's Beware the Cat (1561) – a satirical book considered by some to be the first ever novel, which centres around a man who learns to understand the language of a group of terrifying supernatural cats, one of whom, Mouse-slayer, is on trial for promiscuity.

But that's just the beginning. Ekirch found casual references to the system of twice-sleeping in every conceivable form, with hundreds in letters, diaries, medical textbooks, philosophical writings, newspaper articles and plays.

The practice even made it into ballads, such as "Old Robin of Portingale. "…And at the wakening of your first sleepe, You shall have a hot drink made, And at the wakening of your next sleepe, Your sorrows will have a slake…"

Biphasic sleep was not unique to England, either – it was widely practised throughout the preindustrial world. In France, the initial sleep was the "premier somme"; in Italy, it was "primo sonno". In fact, Eckirch found evidence of the habit in locations as distant as Africa, South and Southeast Asia, Australia, South America and the Middle East.
Like many Romans, the historian Livy may have been a practitioner of biphasic sleep – he alludes to the method in his magnum opus, The History of Rome (Credit: Alamy)
Like many Romans, the historian Livy may have been a practitioner of biphasic sleep – he alludes to the method in his magnum opus, The History of Rome (Credit: Alamy)
One colonial account from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil in 1555 described how the Tupinambá people would eat dinner after their first sleep, while another – from 19th Century Muscat, Oman – explained that the local people would retire for their first sleep before 22:00.

And far from being a peculiarity of the Middle Ages, Ekirch began to suspect that the method had been the dominant way of sleeping for millennia – an ancient default that we inherited from our prehistoric ancestors. The first record Ekirch found was from the 8th Century BC, in the 12,109-line Greek epic The Odyssey, while the last hints of its existence dated to the early 20th Century, before it somehow slipped into oblivion.

How did it work? Why did people do it? And how could something that was once so completely normal, have been forgotten so completely?

A spare moment

In the 17th Century, a night of sleep went something like this.

From as early as 21:00 to 23:00, those fortunate enough to afford them would begin flopping onto mattresses stuffed with straw or rags – alternatively it might have contained feathers, if they were wealthy – ready to sleep for a couple of hours. (At the bottom of the social ladder, people would have to make do with nestling down on a scattering of heather or, worse, a bare earth floor – possibly even without a blanket.)

At the time, most people slept communally, and often found themselves snuggled up with a cosy assortment of bedbugs, fleas, lice, family members, friends, servants and – if they were travelling – total strangers.

To minimise any awkwardness, sleep involved a number of strict social conventions, such as avoiding physical contact or too much fidgeting, and there were designated sleeping positions. For example, female children would typically lie at one side of the bed, with the oldest nearest the wall, followed by the mother and father, then male children – again arranged by age – then non-family members.

A couple of hours later, people would begin rousing from this initial slumber. The night-time wakefulness usually lasted from around 23:00 to about 01:00, depending on what time they went to bed. It was not generally caused by noise or other disturbances in the night – and neither was it initiated by any kind of alarm (these were only invented in 1787, by an American man who – somewhat ironically – needed to wake up on time to sell clocks). Instead, the waking happened entirely naturally, just as it does in the morning.

The period of wakefulness that followed was known as "the watch" – and it was a surprisingly useful window in which to get things done. "[The records] describe how people did just about anything and everything after they awakened from their first sleep," says Ekirch.
Communal sleeping meant that people usually had someone to chat with when they woke up for "the watch" (Credit: Getty Images)’

This is part of something I googled having remembered reading about people’s sleep patterns in mediaeval time which resonated with me as someone that has always had a very unusual sleep pattern. It was called ‘second sleep’.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:31:38

MissAdventure

Could you back that up by posting a doctors certificate. smile

😄😄 I’ve been out all morning.

I can’t believe the small mindedness!

Siope Tue 06-Aug-24 12:29:56

compelled to use their real name (only, not the other private details) on the site instead of a forum name, then much of the dangerous stuff would stop

Even if that were true (and it’s not, people post loads of misinformation and vindictive nonsense under their real names), it would stop women trying to get help to flee an abusive partner; dissidents who are opposing dictators; charity workers who want to comment on party politics; whistleblowers within dreadful companies…

MissAdventure Tue 06-Aug-24 12:27:52

Could you back that up by posting a doctors certificate. smile

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:22:15

Let me explain my sleep pattern, not frankly that it is anyone’s business.

It is called Segmented sleep, which I have been doing as I’ve got older, although I did so when studying and not so much when I worked full time.

So for those hard of thinking let me explain

We may be hardwired to sleep in two periods. A study by the National Institute of Mental Health looked at how people slept when they got 10 hours of light a day -- about as much as on a winter's day. Researchers found that those folks got their shut-eye in two chunks, with a few hours awake in between. That's closer to how animals sleep, too.

Some people follow that split schedule today -- using the middle-of-the-night awake period as a creative time to think, read, meditate, or work.

"There are people for whom that seems to be a productive way to live and suits them just fine," says Mary Carskadon, PhD, a sleep researcher at Brown University. "But it's hard to do if you have family and a job you have to go to every day."

It works very well for me. Sometimes I might sleep the entire night, but generally I find that the two shift pattern works very well for me.

I hope that helps those whose minds seem so closed that they cannot conceive anything outside of their normality.

Explains a lot.

Wyllow3 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:16:44

Sorry - ref the BBC stream
www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cw5yyynpwnzt

Wyllow3 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:16:13

Its good to see a prosecution at last for online crime

"Leeds man first to face prosecution for alleged online hatred, linked to disorder

A 28-year-old man has been charged with posting content online intending to stir up racial hatred, in relation to this past week's violent disorder.
Jordan Parlour, of Seacroft in Leeds, is the first individual to face prosecution for posting allegedly criminal messages linked to the violence.
Nick Price, of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), said that it had authorised West Yorkshire Police to charge Parlour with using threatening words or behaviour intending to stir up racial hatred.
The charge relates to alleged Facebook posts between 1 and 5 August in connection with the public disorder."

JaneJudge Tue 06-Aug-24 12:12:46

i apologise to everyone as I must have mis read it as the BBC quoting it and missed it was false news report from the US (unless there is more on the older stream that I read)

Parsley3 Tue 06-Aug-24 12:11:51

This now makes the circulation of damaging and false information online into an offence in its own right.”
Good. Prosecution is going to be a mammoth task but it has to start now with the high profile offenders. An isolated incident in my little part of Scotland was posted as a frenzied racist knife attack on X by Tate. I was shocked that his vile misinformation had touched my home town but clearly his influence is everywhere. Fortunately, the truth of the matter was in the public domain and nobody took the bait.
As for GN, I prefer to let like minded posters get on with bolstering each other's opinions. If I don't agree I find that countering them is pointless.

Dickens Tue 06-Aug-24 12:11:14

Boz

Dickens

Kandinsky

Time of posting was seen as a big red flag during the Brexit debates on mumsnet - anyone posting pro brexit posts in the early hours of the morning was called a Russian Bot. I didn’t agree tbh but that’s what was happening.
But I do think it’s a bit odd, if you’re living in the UK, to be C&P’ing articles from the guardian at 3’ O’clock in the morning.

But I do think it’s a bit odd, if you’re living in the UK, to be C&P’ing articles from the guardian at 3’ O’clock in the morning.

It's unusual I grant you.

You say it's "odd". I've been known to do online banking in the early hours of the morning when I couldn't sleep as well as pinging off emails to various people.

Explain it to me. This 'oddness'.

Perhaps it it more 'screen addiction', which we all, to some degree, have.
If I am awake in the night I make a strong effort to not start glaring at a screen because the brain becomes active and you may not be able to get back to sleep.

Perhaps it it more 'screen addiction', which we all, to some degree, have.
If I am awake in the night I make a strong effort to not start glaring at a screen because the brain becomes active and you may not be able to get back to sleep.

I completely agree. The brain most certainly does become active and I think it's documented that it makes it difficult to get back to sleep.

Social media is I think to some extent part of all our lives now. I don't know if it's an addiction or if it's taken the place of the long-gone meet ups with friends in the pub or coffee shop, or chats on the 'phone with friends. And certainly for those, like me, who are mostly housebound looking after a disabled OH, it's definitely a kind of replacement interaction.

But I do not accept that it's odd to be posting at 3 am in the morning - or any time during the night hours. As you the age 8 hour's sleep format often goes right out the window. Illness, aches and pains, worries, being a carer for a spouse, etc - all these things often keep us up, or waken us during the night. My grandmother, when she couldn't sleep, used to get up, make tea and polish shoes. She might have been on GN too if it had existed in the 1940s, who knows!