School Bombed in Gaza

valdavi, your summary seems a good one to me. It also resonated with the victim mentality shown by racist rioters here recently
They complain ‘their country’ is being taken over so riot and attack anyone who stands in their way

Whitewavemark2

One of the assertions of the article is that certainly since Oct. 7 and in fact prior to that, the Jewish historian argues that Israeli’s see themselves as the victims, just as the German did post WW1.

He goes on to argue that this victimhood gave the Germans permission to commit untold horrors on others largely but not exclusively the Jewish population in Europe.

He maintains that this idea of victimhood amongst the Israelis is resulting in a similar mentality. That victimhood empowers violence.

Sorry it’s a bit disjointed, I’m barbecuing😄 in the garden.

This is interesting. Certainly those violent thugs taking part in the riots recently will also nurse a sense of victimhood, is the foundation stone of any racist group though they would describe themselves as nationalists. This then gave them the right to try to burn migrants alive inside their hotel.
It obviously spurs people on to commit heinous crimes without even a nodding aquiantance with a moral compass.

That's interesting. It's about taking reponsibility for your personal or national behaviour, maybe. If you are told you're a victim, or your country is at the mercy of "terrorists" "immigrants" "outsiders" & everything's unfair, then you feel less responsibility than if you are told you have a degree of power and are in control of your own destiny. If, having some control, you then commit atrocities, there is no excuse, whereas the victim can tell themselves they were driven to it.

One of the assertions of the article is that certainly since Oct. 7 and in fact prior to that, the Jewish historian argues that Israeli’s see themselves as the victims, just as the German did post WW1.

He goes on to argue that this victimhood gave the Germans permission to commit untold horrors on others largely but not exclusively the Jewish population in Europe.

He maintains that this idea of victimhood amongst the Israelis is resulting in a similar mentality. That victimhood empowers violence.

Sorry it’s a bit disjointed, I’m barbecuing😄 in the garden.

Anniebach

I thought the majority her see Palestinians as victims

I think that's far too simplistic, just as it is to see Palestinians as the aggressors. I think the discussion on this thread and on others is much more nuanced.

Anniebach

I thought the majority her see Palestinians as victims

You need to read the article in its entirety - to understand where my post is coming from.

I thought the majority her see Palestinians as victims

Sorry my computer dropped out - battery flat.
Now plugged in😊

So I was going to add that my question at the end is as a result of the reading of the article.

I’m not sure i agree - well i have still to think about it.

But it made for very troubling reading.

“This is the logic of endless violence, a logic that allows one to destroy entire populations and to feel totally justified in doing so ………………. and nothing empowers violence more than a righteous sense of victimhood”

You hear this righteous sense of victimhood every time an Israeli spokesperson is interviewed. You see it on these threads.

Wrongly comparing Hamas with the Nazis has given the IDF permission to kill, kill, kill. To wipe out the memory of Palestinians.

To treat the Palestinans as less than animals and encourage Israelis to turn their face to the wall when images of dead Palestinian children are shown.

Who will be the first to ask them how much difference is this from the Holocaust?

I read it and found it very interesting albeit rather depressing. War is dehumanising, sadly regardless of how this war ends, Israelis as well as Palestinians will have to learn to live with the consequences and it won't be easy. Many secular Jews in Israel will decide to emigrate, leaving the balance of power in the hands of the Ultra religious and I find it difficult to imagine any long term peace. It's a really desperate situation.

Wyllow3

That's a very profound article, WWM. Including how and which news features in Israel, how things are presented.

I think you mean the link posted by spaghetti?

Yes - I read it yesterday in the guardian, but it needs more than one reading I think to take on board everything he is saying.

“Indeed I would reverse your argument and say that it is Israelis/Jews who have never wanted to share with Palestinians and done their utmost to drive them from the land.”

Even under the Ottomans the the Arabs didnt want to share, when the League of nations asked Britain to administer the region Arabs were attacking others, even though they were supposed to be sharing. It wasn’t until after WW2 that Israel drove the British out and subdued the Arabs that is the situation today

Did you mean the Omer Bartov one Wyllow3 or have I missed it?

That's a very profound article, WWM. Including how and which news features in Israel, how things are presented.

Excellent summary Babs03.

And substantiated by the continuing illegal settlement expansion in the West Bank.

Whitewavemark2

Anyone listen to the today programme this morning with Mishal Hussain interviewing an Israeli representative?

Blimey!

I heard it - and initially was confused as the language was the same (as the rather rude and dismissing man who had preceded this one) but the voice was much older!

I had to look them up. The first was sacked.
The second obviously has the same script writer!

I felt "Blimey" too!

You may like to read this Whitewavemark:

www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov

babs03

Good post

Babs03

David49

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the Jews should have been prevented from migrating to Israel, there was plenty of space but the small local population has never accepted sharing with Jews. Now that population has grown and wants the Jews out, the Islamic ideology preaches that you should die for your beliefs.
Hamas is using this to gain propaganda, civilian deaths are martyrs, if the war escalated outside Gaza that “martyrdom” is likely to spread, millions will die.

There have always been Jews in Israel or Palestine back in the day. And I don’t think that Palestinians didn’t want to share, having already shared the country with Jews for very many years, but the problems arose when their homeland became the homeland of Jews to the exclusion of themselves, the illegal taking of their land and homes, and the fact they became treated like second class citizens. Apartheid was effectively forced upon them.
Fact is many Palestinians live in Haifa and other areas of Israel, not just the West Bank and Gaza, and they have shared their lives with Jews but have not enjoyed the same opportunities or freedoms.
Indeed I would reverse your argument and say that it is Israelis/Jews who have never wanted to share with Palestinians and done their utmost to drive them from the land.
Muslims can and go live peacefully alongside other peoples around the world, this isn’t about religion, is about geopolitics, power and greed. Religion just justifies the killing of others in the name of God, but is a man made construct.

good reasoned response

David49

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the Jews should have been prevented from migrating to Israel, there was plenty of space but the small local population has never accepted sharing with Jews. Now that population has grown and wants the Jews out, the Islamic ideology preaches that you should die for your beliefs.
Hamas is using this to gain propaganda, civilian deaths are martyrs, if the war escalated outside Gaza that “martyrdom” is likely to spread, millions will die.

There have always been Jews in Israel or Palestine back in the day. And I don’t think that Palestinians didn’t want to share, having already shared the country with Jews for very many years, but the problems arose when their homeland became the homeland of Jews to the exclusion of themselves, the illegal taking of their land and homes, and the fact they became treated like second class citizens. Apartheid was effectively forced upon them.
Fact is many Palestinians live in Haifa and other areas of Israel, not just the West Bank and Gaza, and they have shared their lives with Jews but have not enjoyed the same opportunities or freedoms.
Indeed I would reverse your argument and say that it is Israelis/Jews who have never wanted to share with Palestinians and done their utmost to drive them from the land.
Muslims can and go live peacefully alongside other peoples around the world, this isn’t about religion, is about geopolitics, power and greed. Religion just justifies the killing of others in the name of God, but is a man made construct.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the Jews should have been prevented from migrating to Israel, there was plenty of space but the small local population has never accepted sharing with Jews. Now that population has grown and wants the Jews out, the Islamic ideology preaches that you should die for your beliefs.
Hamas is using this to gain propaganda, civilian deaths are martyrs, if the war escalated outside Gaza that “martyrdom” is likely to spread, millions will die.

Determined we hang onto hope...

So you have no hope?

The 'West' should have not allowed any expansion after 1948, and stopped it very firmly. Too late now. Every bomb, every death, makes it worse. And what is happening now is nothing compared to what will happen next when this bit is over.

Tragically.

My comment was in direct response to another post saying immigrants have to integrate.

A solution? I just cannot see one as it has all gone far far too far.

Fleurpepper

You are not saying that the indigenous Muslim Palestianian population should have 'integrated' to the Jewish settlers? Or that Jewish settlers should have become Muslims?

This kind of comment is where I begin to feel despairing. I can’t work out whether you’re being ironic or sarcastic.
Surely most of us hope / pray for a two state solution.
Currently we have the awful Netanyahu government and the equally awful Hamas.
I do not accept the futile argument that the October massacre was a) the responsibility of the Israelis or B) allowed by Netanyahu so he could bomb the Palestinians into submission

Balfour wasn’t perfect. The 1948 agreement wasn’t perfect. We can’t change that. I believe we’re reahungbthe point where the UN arranges an international peacekeeping force. The USA and the current negotiators from Egypt etc would need to unite and find a way to enforce this.
Netanyahu / Hamas don’t want peace, that’s clear