These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

It's still just weeks since the election.

Ilovecheese

Now Starmer is said to be going to make a speech telling us that things are going to be worse. Why would anyone do that? Convince people to vote for them because they were going to make things better then immediately admit that you are incapable of doing what you promised. Why advertise the fact that you are either unwilling or unable to improve people's lives.

To make it clear that hard choices are going to be made, don’t expect any giveaways at the budget.

Now Starmer is said to be going to make a speech telling us that things are going to be worse before they get better.
Actually he’s probably been reading about Mrs Thatcher. She said the same thing when she took over from the Labour government.

I don’t expect anyone to read this link, but it’s a good basis for what Starmer is coming up with.

www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104325

You do realise that Thatcher was economically illiterate, don't you?

Starmer is looking much the same.

Are you saying Starmer is economically illiterate?
🤣🤣🤣

You won’t be very popular on here.

Thatcher, who came to power on the strength of 1 million unemployed and a poster of the dole queue captioned 'Labour isn't working', promptly added another 2million people to the dole queue, sold off the family silver (state enterprises), destroyed our manufacturing industry , leaving regions of the UK in deprivation from which some have still not recovered and used North Sea oil revenues for lowering taxes instead of investing it in the UK's future.

She was an economic and social disaster. It seems we have another one about to unfold...

Mollygo

Are you saying Starmer is economically illiterate?
🤣🤣🤣

You won’t be very popular on here.

I am.

Frankly, most people are.

Frankly, most people are.

And the most likely to be economically illiterate are those who think they aren’t.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

MaizieD

Mollygo

Are you saying Starmer is economically illiterate?
🤣🤣🤣

You won’t be very popular on here.

I am.

Frankly, most people are.

I'm not in a position to argue intelligently about economics, but even I know that it is not an exact science, and that there are different perspectives, just as there are about Politics, Sociology, History etc. People see the world differently, and that is ok.

Those who disagree (with whichever perspective) are not illiterate, they simply hold a different point of view.

Writing off others as stupid (or illiterate) for seeing things differently has, I am sure, led to significant alienation in the population at large, which in turn has arguably led to Brexit, riots, and goodness knows what else. People are so sick of being told by those who see their own views as superior and others' as 'illiterate', 'misinformed', 'ignorant' or whatever that they have stopped listening.

It's time we all learnt to respect the views of others and accept that they have the right to hold them, whether or not they are the same as our own.

Are people really saying that there is only one 'right' way to view Economics, and that RR and chancellors passim just don't get it? And that the electorate are too stupid to see it either? Reeves is an economist! She may or may not agree in her outlook with people on here, but her views are surely valid and not based on ignorance? What's the difference between holding a Modern Economic Theoretical view about Economics and thinking that we can view History as a struggle between the owners and non-owners of the Means of Production? Both are necessarily biased and partial, surely? And both assume that those who disagree are hampered by a lack of understanding (in Historical terminology this would be a lack of class consciousness).

It must be amazing to feel that you are the only one with access to The Truth.

Thank you Doodledog for putting in words what I've ben thinking.

(been)

I am one that endorses Starmers plans so far, he seems to have a realistic view of economics, whether politics allows him to carry out his plans is an entirely different matter.

Since Thatchers was PM UK politics has been all about
gerrymandering votes - give aways to pressure groups, we have not earned todays lifestyle we have borrowed it.

Nobody owes the UK a living, we have very little control over companies because so many are foreign owned, that means that most of the profit goes overseas, whatever technology was developed in the UK was exploited overseas. We need more renewable energy, but we have virtually no renewable industry.

Successive governments have taken the easy option, neglecting investment in the economy, for short term political gain.

Thanks again Doodledog. We really need to encourage discussion and debate, to accept there may be merit in points of view other than our own. It’s felt scarily like Trump’s America on gransnet recently.

It must be amazing to feel that you are the only one with access to The Truth.

I don’t, but I get the impression that so many posters on GN feel that only they have access to what you describe as The Truth.
And before I get criticised for so many posters
leaving people wondering if it means them . . . if you wonder that, then it probably does.

I don't know the exact truth of economics, but I am certain that if Reeve's tough decisions result in another round of Austerity by any other name, then people will do what they always do when their rent, mortgages, food, energy, and other bills, increase or become unaffordable - and their wages stagnate - they will stop spending, which will result in the private sector ultimately cutting back on production, employment, and investment, for both commodities and services.

The ultra wealthy are obviously not constrained - but where do they spend their money other than investing in land, property, the market, and private banks.

Will that grow the economy?

I don't understand the remark about Gransnet being like Trump's America. I thought we were doing all right on this thread when I left it last night, different opinions yes, but not attacks on other posters.

I am no economics expert either, having only studied it at a basic level and that was some years ago. But austerity didn't work when it was imposed by George Osborne, and I don't believe it will work now, if what we are aiming for is a better life for everyone in the country, not just the very wealthy.

I also understand and agree that the new Government have only been in place for a few weeks but what has struck me is that in that short time they have suspended MPs who wanted to alleviate child poverty and taken away the heating allowance for pensioners, while nodding through a large increase in energy costs. I just find that puzzling and depressing.

Not puzzling at all energy is a free market the government limited the price increases that we paid when it sky rocketed due to Ukraine, now we pay back the cost of that. Whether we ever get back to the cheap prices before is doubtful.

I'm not making a case for Austerity. I'm just tired of the idea that anyone not agreeing with Modern Monetary Theory is illiterate or stupid. To be honest, I don't know whether I agree with it or not, as I don't know enough about it. What I do know is that someone like RR who has a degree in PPE from Oxford and a Masters from LSE will know enough about it to decide whether or not to follow one course or another. She may have made the wrong choice - time will tell on that - but she is not economically illiterate.

Again, Doodledog, you have spoken what I feel.

Again, I feel, it's too early days to know the long term plans. We may get austerity plus some borrowing. RR was left in an appalling situation in July. No quick fixes.

Tried to avoid but give in - I’m with Doodledog and Wyllow. They were elected after being clear they’d be facing challenging times. I wasn’t expecting a rose garden and I remain relieved the tories are in opposition

Well, so do I remain relieved that the Tories are in opposition, but I did think that there would be some sense of urgency from a Labour Government to alleviate child poverty, not actively discourage the idea.
I will see if this speech Starmer is to make gives any clear idea of their vision to improve the lives of the not so wealthy.
And hope for the best.

The magic Money Money Tree exists, the government can use it, if it is used responsibly there isnt a problem. In the past much has been used, for social give aways, vanity projects or just wasted

Yes for austerity-if it’s RR who recommends it.
Yes to things are going to get worse before they get better if KS says it.
It’s very déjà vu.

Who is saying yes to austerity? Is it you, Molly? I don't really understand your post.

I don't want to see Austerity, and I don't think others on this thread are saying that they do either. I'm tired though, so maybe I'm picking things up wrongly.