These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

At the risk of being challenged for saying so - I believe we have a whole 'under' class of people who are deprived, educationally, economically and culturally; who are basically totally ignored - until something like these riots surfaces. Then they are 'dealt' with - a prison sentence which is supposed to make them and those like them think twice about taking part in any future riots

But it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, which is ignorance and deprivation. And nothing is being, or has been, done about that

This>

You dont know the underclass until you live among them.

I'm waiting to see what Timpson can come up with as I genuinely don't know how to balance need and necessity and the £££££.

Wyllow3

It's a catch 22. (I don't disagree Molly, btw, at all)

It costs a lot of money to keep someone in prison for a year, and if we only turn out constant recidivists the problem just increases.

So what do we do?

It's a catch 22. (I don't disagree Molly, btw, at all)

It costs a lot of money to keep someone in prison for a year, and if we only turn out constant recidivists the problem just increases.

Wyllow3

Prison reform advocates

"The most successful types of programs are psychological, occupational-based, and education-focused programs, which focus on the issues of the prisoner to help them improve themselves and become ready to re-enter society"

Norway has the least recidivism and its programmes

"Rehabilitation is one main aim in prison policy, along with punishment. It includes measures like work, education, programs, drug rehabilitation, gym and training. Health care, social welfare services, discussion groups; poetry, music, theatre, and radio productions are also part of this.

Question is, resourcing.

Question is, resourcing.
Resourcing in terms of funding and the people to provide all those rehabilitation programs.
And then you’re back to the fact that people who do stay out of trouble and don’t go to prison can’t get healthcare, social welfare services gym and training, or even afford food without going to food banks.

I presume that’s why the government have appointed James Timpson, because his family lead the way in work based rehabilitation for ex prisoners?

Prison reform advocates

"The most successful types of programs are psychological, occupational-based, and education-focused programs, which focus on the issues of the prisoner to help them improve themselves and become ready to re-enter society"

Norway has the least recidivism and its programmes

"Rehabilitation is one main aim in prison policy, along with punishment. It includes measures like work, education, programs, drug rehabilitation, gym and training. Health care, social welfare services, discussion groups; poetry, music, theatre, and radio productions are also part of this.

Question is, resourcing.

Once they have got a prison record it’s too late for most, action needs to ensure the behavior is better and laws obeyed, respect for authority respect for others.
That starts in the home and in schools

mumofmadboys

There is virtually no rehabilitation happening in prisons sadly

Maybe because no one knows what would be effective apart from education.
What would GN’s like to see happening? What do they think would be useful in terms of rehabilitation?
If any government had the will to do something, what should they do?

There is virtually no rehabilitation happening in prisons sadly

David49

MaizieD

David49

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The UK already controls 'legal' migration.

What do you think they are doing wrongly in the 'control' system?

What do you think would make it better?

Enough resources has to be put into stopping the migrants launching boats in France.

AND

A proper system where genuine Assylum Seekers can settle in the UK it’s not unreasonable to expect the UK to take its share, we need a system that is seen to work fairly

You said 'a better system of legal migration' would help. That's what I was talking about.

I agree that we need to improve the way we deal with the irregular migrants, work on legal routes, for a start, but I think we have to keep discourse about the existing 'legal' immigration separate from the irregular because people tend to conflate the two.

Casdon

From what I’ve read, a high percentage of those sentenced so far are not people with unblemished records, and many have been imprisoned for previous offences. It’s made me wonder if there is an element of people actually wanting to return to jail, and whether rehabilitation and education will have as much impact as we’d all like it to, particularly as so many of them are not young men, but people in their late thirties, forties and fifties.

If you have a prison record life is very hard, you can’t get a decent job and nobody trusts you, only a minority are helped by rehabilitation, prison is no deterrent if your life is already rubbish it’s almost respite.

Prisons are universities of crime and if you’re not a drug addict you will be when you leave, then just claim benefits, and idle your life away, if you want something you cant afford, steal it, the risk of being caught is very low.

The prison population has never been higher a product of our liberal undisciplined society, with no respect for anything.

MaizieD

David49

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The UK already controls 'legal' migration.

What do you think they are doing wrongly in the 'control' system?

What do you think would make it better?

Enough resources has to be put into stopping the migrants launching boats in France.

AND

A proper system where genuine Assylum Seekers can settle in the UK it’s not unreasonable to expect the UK to take its share, we need a system that is seen to work fairly

On googling, it's hard to get UK information. Quora offers,

"Some people may return to prison after being released due to not having a solid support system in place upon their release, having no resources or services at their disposal, or being so shunned and rejected by society that they are denied access to a job, a place to live, etc"

This relates to whether there is adequate support in place after prison, which I doubt.

From what I’ve read, a high percentage of those sentenced so far are not people with unblemished records, and many have been imprisoned for previous offences. It’s made me wonder if there is an element of people actually wanting to return to jail, and whether rehabilitation and education will have as much impact as we’d all like it to, particularly as so many of them are not young men, but people in their late thirties, forties and fifties.

David49

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The UK already controls 'legal' migration.

What do you think they are doing wrongly in the 'control' system?

What do you think would make it better?

David49
Re the US. Have you seen the film A Day Without a Mexican
It’s a spoof film but with a serious message.

www.google.com/search?q=Amazon+Prime+%2B+A+day+without+a+Mexican&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:b6ad345a,vid:cYJcfhxMkrQ,st:0

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The values curriculum where I work is detailed and rigorous. Children are expected to know them and practice them and are rewarded and praised for doing that, but as David49 says,

If you want to have values and respect you have to be able to enforce those values, there are always going to be some who will try to rebel against them

There are always children and parents who don’t see any use in the teaching of those values, who dismiss them as woolly and who say it doesn’t happen in all schools so what’s the point. However, it has to start somewhere and starting with a small step is better than doing nothing.

growstuff

Freya5

Wyllow3

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

Truth about immigration is not liked on this thread.

Which truth do you mean?

There is a divide between posters as to what ‘the truth’ about immigration is. Those of us who don’t share your truth, Freya, could equally claim the truth about immigration is disliked by others who contribute to the discussion.

If you want to have values and respect you have to be able to enforce those values, there are always going to be some who will try to rebel against them. If they are seen to get away with it others will follow, in schools or society in general there is insufficient resources given to enforcing rules, laws and behavior.

It doesnt matter which rule you are breaking, speeding in a car, taking drugs, bullying your classmates, getting away with it is more exciting than obeying the rules. If you push the boundaries the penalties need to be harsh, as the rioters are finding out.

The trouble with those values is that they are very woolly. The examples given aren't statutory, so schools are free to interpret them however they want. In any case, teaching values isn't really the same as ensuring that all pupils play an active part in being responsible and knowledgeable citizens.

I decided to look up a values curriculum and found it here

www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-british-values-in-schools-published

But I guess that different schools have taken different paths on it?

There is a PDF with details, but it includes "
This is non-statutory advice from the Department for Education.

So we could have had different experiences of or about it?

In my ideal world I'd like to see cross party work starting soon instead of it becoming a battle ground.

Growstuff, I was addressing Dickens’ post. I never claimed it had anything to do with the stabbings in Southport any more than she did. Nor did I say that that behaviour helped.
Re the values curriculum, I work in Primary, not Secondary so I bow to your knowledge of KS3 onwards.

Wyllow3

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

I think deprivation and dead-end jobs are bearable - if they are short-lived experiences. But if that is all there is stretching out in front of you for the rest of your life, then it must feel pretty hopeless, even if you are only aware of it subconsciously.

Obviously, not all of those taking part in these riots are in that position - they were not all uneducated louts looking to create trouble.

... and none of this excuses the violence. But this idea that these sentences are going to solve the underlying problems that do exist, worries me. Yes, I'm sure some individuals will think twice before taking part in these kinds of riots, but what about those that didn't get caught? Is this the end of it all? How long before there's another excuse for the 'patriotic' foot-soldiers, wearing their St George's flag like a tunic, to take part in a violent 'protest'?

The government have made a good job of treating the symptoms, but not the cause.