Keyboard warriors - will the jail sentences deter others?

People aren't being "banned" for having different views. What do you mean by "banned?" We have had a small number of prosecutions but who has been banned from what exactly?

Some people are being prosecuted by the police for incitement to racial hatred and to actual violence not just race wise but for threatening (as alluded to above) violence against individuals such as MP's or even ordinary people who have been unfortunate enough to come onto the headlines.

Or posting material dangerous to young people. (yes Iam one of the original driving forces was the girl who Casdon mentioned upthread who took her own life).

As Maerion posted on the last page 9 at 22,08, we have pre-existing laws from 1988 (Malicious Communications Acts) but they didnt cover the world we live in , when the 2023 Act was passed.

Galaxy you are right to look at people who feel disenfranchised the problem is that voting % in those areas are generally very low indeed. Governments have said they will do something about levelling up but so far it hasn't happened.

Behind the scenes are those who are neither poor nor uneducated but have a political agenda to stir civil unrest. Not just the Tommy Robinsons of this world, but the constant Social Media postings that just avoid prosecution but stir hatred up.

You can bsolutely prosecute people for inciting violence on social media, what you cant have at the same time is Wes Streeting in the cabinet. Poor Wes Streeting, who I like a lot, but he is the example I am using.
You probably also cant have many representatives of the SNP but thats less of a problem these days.

Galaxy

I am intelligent enough to know Babs that many of us have been talking for a very long time about a group of people who are utterly ignored and who have tried repeatedly to voice their views via the ballot. I just cant believe that anyone can be surprised by the towns which were the 'hubs' of the riots, has anyone actually been to Hartlepool? If you think this is just a question of a few violent thugs (who of course were very much present and who need to be dealt with by the law) then I dont know what to say.

This I agree with, it doesn't just apply here, it's all over the western world particularly in the US's rust belt. Politicians who continue to ignore the left behind do so at their peril. Referring to them as"the basket of deplorables" for example, just underlines the disconnect between an out of touch elite's disdain, they don't even go to any great lengths to hide the fact that there are certain demographics who they can't really be bothered with. There's possibly a perception that incomers are valued over long established indigenous communities borne from previous generations who had manufacturing industries that sustained them, but in our global world those disappeared with little to replace them, add to that social breakdowns, wide spread drug use, industrial wastelands the world's moved on and it has taken it with them so what we have are hornet nests of ingrained discontent born out of under privilege.

has hasn't

I think thats a very accurate comparison with the USA situation TerriBull and equally needful to address.

Oh some sense . Thank you for that. It is so easy to label people as fascist, racist, far right etc but the underlying issues are being ignored. I would hope a party referring to itself as Labour would address this or try to but we’ll see, doesn’t look promising. It won’t be easy,that’s obvious , but at least they could acknowledge the issues.

TerriBull

Galaxy

I am intelligent enough to know Babs that many of us have been talking for a very long time about a group of people who are utterly ignored and who have tried repeatedly to voice their views via the ballot. I just cant believe that anyone can be surprised by the towns which were the 'hubs' of the riots, has anyone actually been to Hartlepool? If you think this is just a question of a few violent thugs (who of course were very much present and who need to be dealt with by the law) then I dont know what to say.

This I agree with, it doesn't just apply here, it's all over the western world particularly in the US's rust belt. Politicians who continue to ignore the left behind do so at their peril. Referring to them as"the basket of deplorables" for example, just underlines the disconnect between an out of touch elite's disdain, they don't even go to any great lengths to hide the fact that there are certain demographics who they can't really be bothered with. There's possibly a perception that incomers are valued over long established indigenous communities borne from previous generations who had manufacturing industries that sustained them, but in our global world those disappeared with little to replace them, add to that social breakdowns, wide spread drug use, industrial wastelands the world's moved on and it has taken it with them so what we have are hornet nests of ingrained discontent born out of under privilege.

I don’t disagree with what you’ve said TerriBull, I just don’t think it’s a new issue for society, or that there is a solution. There is always a disaffected minority. Their numbers and power rises and falls, but it’s always there. Not that knowing that helps, I know.

nanna8

Oh some sense . Thank you for that. It is so easy to label people as fascist, racist, far right etc but the underlying issues are being ignored. I would hope a party referring to itself as Labour would address this or try to but we’ll see, doesn’t look promising. It won’t be easy,that’s obvious , but at least they could acknowledge the issues.

Don't you think that a person who incites others to bomb a mosque with people in it is racist?

The "underlying issues" have been caused by the decimation of manufacturing in favour of services and more "modern" industries such as pharmaceuticals and IT, which require different skills and education. This has left behind areas which relied on traditional industries. Immigrants aren't the main cause, but they are the scapegoats.

Freya5

Galaxy

They were about lots of things, pretending that immigration wasnt one of the factors is suicidal in terms of society's functioning in my view.

Totally agree.

So the murder of the little girls in Southport was just an excuse and not the real catalyst for the riots?

ronib

I think it would take a lot more for me to actually go and murder someone than reading an internet post by an unknown person.. In fact I would never murder anyone. Hopefully.

But you're not other people. There are people who get radicalised by such posts, especially if that's all they read. They get caught up with a group mentality. What you're saying is that the woman posted something she didn't accept responsibility for. If just one person had decided to bomb a mosque, I guess she'd have just shrugged her shoulders and claimed that she didn't think people would take her seriously. In that case, why post it?

Galaxy

You can bsolutely prosecute people for inciting violence on social media, what you cant have at the same time is Wes Streeting in the cabinet. Poor Wes Streeting, who I like a lot, but he is the example I am using.
You probably also cant have many representatives of the SNP but thats less of a problem these days.

I think that most people would roll their eyes at the thought of Wes Streeting being barred from office because of something he said as a student. As I've said, it would be a dangerous road to go down if we started dredging up comments out of context and holding people responsible for youthful indiscretions. If he had been in office at the time it would, of course, be different, as it would if someone had taken Streeting at his word and pushed someone under a train, but otherwise holding him to account now would simply be vindictive. I've only heard about that 'incident' on here - where was it said, and who is likely to have seen/read/heard it?

I know there is precedent for retrospective punishment, eg the young woman who was appointed as a youth liaison person for the police, and was then found to have posted racist and homophobic tweets or FB posts. I couldn't sleep last night and watched a programme about things going wrong for TV stars (enough to send anyone to sleep), and there was a story about a young Asian soap actress who did something similar and was dropped. I think it's very unfair to do that - she was a teenager at the time of the comment - and would apply that across the political spectrum. It would be the blandest of the bland who never said something they regret, and had been 'responsible' since childhood. Learning to temper passions is part of growing up, and my guess is that many, if not most of those throwing stones about these things are likely to live in glass houses. Ruining someone's life, or taking away opportunities they have worked for feels spiteful to me.

If a soap star or police liaison person says things like that whilst representing their employer it's one thing, but going back decades to find indiscretions is quite another - it's no wonder mental health is so poor these days, if people are worrying about the dodgy joke they passed on in in 1976 or whatever.

Incitement is different. When there are riots on the streets anyone encouraging others to join in, or suggesting particular acts such as burning buildings is not remotely the same as saying something hot headed in your teens.

Not individuals but issues. How hard is that to contemplate? The government will use these dreadful people advocating violence as an excuse to avoid the issues. It is easier to do that than to admit it is just possible there is a reason other than sheer thuggery for the strong feelings. So middle class, aren’t we? I give up.

Growstuff Interesting point but the 53 year old had very few followers even though the judge had not understood that. What are the chances of a possible terrorist being influenced by this woman? Does the actual terrorist have a greater responsibility?
Yes agree that it is very important to take responsibility but I can’t help but think in this case, the defendant was very badly defended.

What you mean is threats to kill are different when I say so. It was a tweet that listed the people he wanted to push under a train. He suggested he wanted to start up his own vigilante organisation. I couldnt give one fig about Streetings historic tweets but you cant have Bob from Sunderland being prosecuted whilst Streeting is seen as fine to be in the cabinet.
You are setting up a system that will push those without wes streetings advantages further to the edge.
It also leads to the question
if some of those making threats were young should they be let off.
Oh and just to give Streeting a break, hope not hates nick lowles misinformation was in the middle of the riots.

Actually you do seem to have an obsession about Streeting’s historic tweets Galaxy? You keep saying they were in different times and not relevant and then bringing them up again and again?

ronib

Growstuff Interesting point but the 53 year old had very few followers even though the judge had not understood that. What are the chances of a possible terrorist being influenced by this woman? Does the actual terrorist have a greater responsibility?
Yes agree that it is very important to take responsibility but I can’t help but think in this case, the defendant was very badly defended.

I thought she sent her post to the local community Facebook page ronib?

I agree, the law has to be applied equally.If strong arm tactics (prison) are now going to be the new normal for bad mouthing on social media then it should be the same for everyone who’s indulged in it.
And for anyone saying that immigration has nothing to do with the riots, that’s laughable.It has everything to do with it.

Because it perpetuates the idea of one rule for them one rule for us. Which will be disastrous in the long run.
I could use the SNPs MPs just the same, that was just last year I think, standing smiling at the protest with the banners saying decapitate terfs floating next to them.
But they get to say ooops just a mistake.

nanna8

Not individuals but issues. How hard is that to contemplate? The government will use these dreadful people advocating violence as an excuse to avoid the issues. It is easier to do that than to admit it is just possible there is a reason other than sheer thuggery for the strong feelings. So middle class, aren’t we? I give up.

At this stage we just don't know what the government will do. They have had to stop the violence, and getting to the root of the problems that have festered over the past couple of decades will come next, I hope.

The last lot blethered on about levelling up. but as with so many of their promises, they forgot about it when they got power - they 'flip flopped' if you like.

I agree that for too long people's concerns have been minimised. I think it started with Brexit, when Brexiteers were ridiculed for being uneducated older people with limited political awareness. I was very much a Remainer, but I didn't like those stereotypes. I don't want to rehash the arguments, but very few people (including me) really knew what would happen. It was a best guess for all of us. But before that, Thatcher talked about 'Moaning Minnies' who expressed concern for the ex industrial areas that had been laid waste. All people needed to do was get on their bikes and they, too, could benefit from all the investment that was poured into the SE of England. Never mind that their homes and families were in Yorkshire, Nottingham or Durham, or that their houses were consequently worth a quarter of the cost of one in the South, they were whingers, whose skills were rendered useless for political reasons, and were written off.

It's easy to preach about how X doesn't cause Y, and how bigoted those who can't see that must be; but if you are getting up at 6.00am to go to work for minimum wage and your neighbour stays in bed but gets the same amount of money in benefits, or if you have saved for the future but can't spend your money for fear of accusations of 'deprivation of assets' but your neighbour has spent their income as they got it and gets pension credit and/or free social care, then of course you will be resentful. Then having people tell you that you are 'superior' or head tilt and tell you that you don't understand how hard it is for some to save just puts the icing on the cake - just how can someone on low wages hope to make a better life when up against this system? It infuriates me, and I've been lucky enough to have a decent job and to be able to buy a house, so am less affected by it (unless my husband or I need care in future).

Bring immigration into the mix, so people see (eg) Polish brickies willing to work for lower wages as they are living three to a room, and those whose own wages fall as a result don't care that the construction industry needs foreign labour - they just want to feed their kids and pay the rent. Pointing out that membership of the EU allows freedom of movement both ways, so their children can study abroad on the Erasmus scheme is unlikely to cut any ice either, and then patronising them for not caring about that just makes things worse.

There are so many examples of how this sort of thing plays out, and I agree that 'we' ignore them at our peril. I suspect that it's the fact that the UK inevitably lines up along 'us' and 'them' lines that will get in the way of progress, however.

What you mean is threats to kill are different when I say so.
That's really not what I mean at all.

The decision about degree of intent is always ultimately going to be down to a judge though, because it’s impossible to define intent at a generic level, isn’t it?

MaizieD

Oreo

I very much doubt that anyone knew about the online safety law brought in just last year.I will be totally honest and say I didn’t.

I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is not a valid defence in a court case.

I know, and have said so earlier on. It was only brought in last year tho, and the ones who said awful stuff on SM didn’t know about it, if they had they would never have done it.

Casdon well I read that there were 5,100 followers- the community facebook page? Well my feeling is that it was hardly a serious intention to incite mayhem. Rather stupid but not of serious intent… or alternatively, as the 53 year old was a carer for her husband perhaps not thinking with any clarity?

nanna8

Oh some sense . Thank you for that. It is so easy to label people as fascist, racist, far right etc but the underlying issues are being ignored. I would hope a party referring to itself as Labour would address this or try to but we’ll see, doesn’t look promising. It won’t be easy,that’s obvious , but at least they could acknowledge the issues.

I think an acknowledge of the issues would be a great start, however what are the “issues” ?