Another long wait for justice

I would rather it took time than that the wrong people were prosecuted, innocent people convicted and the right prosecutions fail for inadequate evidence.

The way they carried on with awarding Medals to the local Fire Brigade's Top Brass in the wake of this Tragedy - said it ALL for me .

I agree PuffernutterUK sometimes it just does take ages to get things just right for a prosecution to go ahead.In this case there are several factors that combined to the sad deaths.

Grantanow

Angela Rayner is reported as being ' unhappy' with the rate of progress in removing unsafe cladding from buildings but what is she actually DOING about it?

I don’t think it’s been easy for any politician to get the companies who own blocks of flats to act quickly to get unsafe cladding off and redo it.It must be a complicated battle.

"The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine" legally, you cannot start any form of legal proceedings until the report has been produced. Then, if you are going for Corporate Manslaughter, you need your ducks in a very very very organised row or it will fail. I know what was involved in the first successful prosecution of Corporate Manslaughter which was the Tebay incident on the railway where track workers were killed and the level of forensic detail required to get a conviction was unreal. Nothing happens quickly, let's just hope it happens at all!

Lahlah65

We do have a different system to other countries. In France they have ‘examining justices’ who direct the process of collecting evidence as well as making decisions. I don’t know if it is quicker though. In Finland, you cannot directly sue a doctor for negligence - the state has a system for providing compensation for medical negligence and then addresses issues of incompetence etc. Others might know more than me about how these systems work and whether they produce quicker results. It has taken many years and successive governments to reach this position - there are unlikely to be quick fixes. We are want to pay less tax and for things to be cheaper, without always thinking about the consequences.

Just look at the Trump trials in the US…convicted guilty in 3 …after years and years of faffing…yet not one penalty has he suffered yet. The sentencing of one has been postponed until after the election ( PRAY he doesn’t get in, he’s a dangerous megalomaniac) and the others seem to be on permanent appeal …. With the final arbitration the Supreme Court of whom 6 are so biased in his favour, they are bending the law to accommodate him! And if he wins he can wipe almost all trials against him anyway! Which is why he is desperate to win! There is Corruption everywhere!
Here the PO and Grenfell cases are horrendous with lifelong consequences for those still suffering, and lives lost…but the law obfuscates and delays and delays. The LAW needs a complete overhaul everywhere and set speedy time limits for dealing with such matters!

What would you count as 'justice'? Picking a couple of scapegoats to lose their job, maybe go to prison?

'Justice' should have started 7 years ago, straight after the fire. Fire Service policies should have been examined and changed. Similar cladding should have been identified and replaced. And, to a certain extent, this HAS happened. Not completely of course, and not quickly enough, it will always be possible to criticise.

i understood it was a second hand fridge that started it, it should be mandatory to have such puchases PAT tested

Good point they (she) is the government, they are in power and in authority of 422 MP’s
The govt rightly acted quickly on the riots same should happen for Grenfell.

We do have a different system to other countries. In France they have ‘examining justices’ who direct the process of collecting evidence as well as making decisions. I don’t know if it is quicker though. In Finland, you cannot directly sue a doctor for negligence - the state has a system for providing compensation for medical negligence and then addresses issues of incompetence etc. Others might know more than me about how these systems work and whether they produce quicker results. It has taken many years and successive governments to reach this position - there are unlikely to be quick fixes. We are want to pay less tax and for things to be cheaper, without always thinking about the consequences.

Exactly, and I heard an interesting interview on Radio 4 this week...explaining that in this country UK everything has to be done in order and process, no parallel work. Hence its takes so much longer to get answers etc as nothing starts when there is an official enquiry ongoing!! ( unlike many other countries)

25Avalon

The son of a friend owns a flat, I think in Slough, which has the cladding on it and he cannot sell it as a consequence. He has moved jobs to another part of the country and can’t afford another property. So it’s not just Grenfell Tower but loads of other properties which are dangerous fire hazards. They need to be sorted urgently.

I believe the cladding was permitted due to our relaxed building regulations and being used in Europe.

I think there are thousands of people whose lives have been put on hold and having to pay extortionate fees for building mistakes that are not their fault, and are the result of the fire at Grenfell. Imagine not being able to move and having the daily worry of feeling unsafe.. it is wicked that the government haven't prioritised this issue.. and made the builders accept financial responsibility..

I also don't know why the inquiry has taken so long...

The last government did launch a scheme in 2023 for cladding but it doesn't seem to have enough "teeth". Its a scheme not a law.

Although the scheme says, "Regulators have warned building owners they will face robust enforcement action if they stall on remediation"

July 2023.

www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-biggest-cladding-removal-scheme#:~:text=The%20full%20opening%20of%20the,developer%20cannot%20be%20made%20to

The robust enforcement isn't described - ie, who identifies culprits and how and what robust enforcement action actually means

I'd like to see stronger laws but the question of what they should be and how enforced, who should initiate action, I don't understand enough.

Grantanow

Angela Rayner is reported as being ' unhappy' with the rate of progress in removing unsafe cladding from buildings but what is she actually DOING about it?

Be fair, two months in power, parliament in recess for a large proportion of this time!

keepingquiet

The police need evidence. Last night one of the survivors claimed that when the companies involved were asked for paperwork they 'dumped' so much it took years to sort through as so much wasn't even relevant to the enquiry. I think they should be charged with wasting police time on a massive scale. They just dont care.
Many MPs also hot footed it out of the chamber yesterday after PMQs, probably because they thought the report wasn't relevant to them. Such disrespect to the survivors and families watching from the gallery.
I feel ashamed of living in this morally bankrupt country.

As do I, it was a disgrace on all sides of the house!!

The son of a friend owns a flat, I think in Slough, which has the cladding on it and he cannot sell it as a consequence. He has moved jobs to another part of the country and can’t afford another property. So it’s not just Grenfell Tower but loads of other properties which are dangerous fire hazards. They need to be sorted urgently.

I believe the cladding was permitted due to our relaxed building regulations and being used in Europe.

The number of organisations to be investigated will be enormous. Yesterday news item suggested will be 3 years before actual investigations into individuals, companies, authorities, even Fire Service will even begin.

I believe the delays are due to our judicial system and the fact those in power never learn any lessons. The Scottish parliament was given £94 million to deal with the remit of dangerous cladding and so far all they’ve spend is approx £9 million and when challenged on this John Swinney trotted out all the usual excuses it’s not their fault, it’s Westminster that are causing the delay or the other one was it’s complicated. Others will die will all parties sit on their hands

Justice protects those with money and influence - end of story.

Grantanow

Angela Rayner is reported as being ' unhappy' with the rate of progress in removing unsafe cladding from buildings but what is she actually DOING about it?

Labour have been in power for 2 months, the Conservatives let this situation go on for the last 8 years. I don't think AR will make concrete promises about how quickly she can change things without being certain of what is possible.

I feel very sad for everyone whose life have been affected by this and hope we see some prosecutions. I find it appalling that only half of the buildings that are affected with this cladding have had work started. It must be dreadful knowing that you are living in a potential tinderbox.

The police need evidence. Last night one of the survivors claimed that when the companies involved were asked for paperwork they 'dumped' so much it took years to sort through as so much wasn't even relevant to the enquiry. I think they should be charged with wasting police time on a massive scale. They just dont care.
Many MPs also hot footed it out of the chamber yesterday after PMQs, probably because they thought the report wasn't relevant to them. Such disrespect to the survivors and families watching from the gallery.
I feel ashamed of living in this morally bankrupt country.

I don't know why police investigations had to wait until after the inquiry was completed.

Surely the police could have been compiling their own evidence, to be amended if needed in the light of the report, so that they could proceed more quickly with any prosecutions deemed necessary?

@indigo8

That’s ok was rectifying my own mistake in not replying to the OP. Is so much to say about this terrible tragedy that obvs everyone will want to express their disgust in their own way. Is just too awful for words.

The lawyers will have done very well out of it, that’s for sure.

Babs03

Btw didn’t address the OPs question - why it takes so long. I really haven’t a clue but obviously must be terrible for those mourning their loss, having this dragged out for years. My guess it that various parties/agencies being accused of negligence hire the very best legal representation to fight their corner and so it drags on.

My comment was a direct reference the fact that the 'lessons to have been learned' was supposed to be, not to take so long for justice to be done. Sorry I did not make myself clear.