What do you hope for in the budget?

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

Precisely Allira. That’s already been discussed, but it’s evidently beyond the comprehension of any government.
They would take a lot longer to grasp it than I’ve seen happen, and would come up with all sorts of figure juggling to justify the fact

that through no fault of their own some pensioners are getting up to £2688.40 pa or £224 less per month or £51.70 less per week, whilst still paying the same prices for food, fuel, rent, etc as those born later.
And that’s before the withdrawal of the WFA.

It's a two tier system of pensions, full of anomalies, open to grievances from all and not well thought through.

The women who miss out most, of course, are those who had to wait longer for their pension but are on the old system whilst others a day younger receive the new State Pension.

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

Agreed about the non-sequitur. The 'riddle' (or more accurately the dubious figures that inspired it) assume that those on the old pension are getting the lowest amount, and those on the new the highest, when neither is necessarily true. It was never an accurate analogy.

Yes, those who are just above the PC limit (which I assume is what you mean?) will miss out, regardless of which pension they are on. It's not a simple case of 'old=poor/new=less so'.

According to today's news the pension is set to rise by more than the WFP, which I take to be what RR was referring to when she kept talking about the triple lock. Again, as any rise is a percentage, those on either pension who get less will get less of a rise, of course.

Wherever a limit is set there are always people who are just above and just below it, that’s the nature of the beast, isn’t it? Raising the PC threshold would help some people, but others will still fall outside whatever changes are made. History tells us that the poorest in society fare best under Labour governments, so I’m sure this is on their radar.

Over 27% less is not just below

We shall wait and see but I doubt anything advantageous will be announced for many people who are JAM.

Casdon

Wherever a limit is set there are always people who are just above and just below it, that’s the nature of the beast, isn’t it? Raising the PC threshold would help some people, but others will still fall outside whatever changes are made. History tells us that the poorest in society fare best under Labour governments, so I’m sure this is on their radar.

Agreed. I am virtually never in favour of means-testing, as it is divisive in so many ways.

I also hope that the JAB are helped, but not by dragging those with just a bit more than them down, which is how means-testing works. You have £10, and the cut-off for getting an extra fiver is £9, so someone with £8 is taken up to having £13 and you are stuck with the £10 you've scraped together by doing without. Meanwhile, the people making a fortune from overcharging for essentials rub their hands in glee as more people can still afford to pay them.

I'd rather see full bills cut, so there aren't people who can't afford to put the heating on in the first place.

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

If they are, they'll be receiving the same or more than people on the new state pension.

If you’re truthful, you know that history tells us that the poor don’t fare well under any government including both main parties.
I would never claim the poor fared well under the Conservatives.
But no matter which government, the rich get rich, and the poor don’t.
Certainly under the last Labour government we, as the poor got poorer. The impact of their actions still affects us now.

growstuff

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

If they are, they'll be receiving the same or more than people on the new state pension.

But their income may be just above the limit because they may have a small works pension.

Therefore still the same amount less than someone on the new State Pension plus the same small private pension.

🤔

Therefore still the same amount less than someone on the new State Pension plus the same small private pension.

Yes.

Not everyone on the old pension is on less than the highest rate of the new pension, and not everyone on the new pension is on the top rate either.

Some on the old pension get more than those on the new could hope for, and of course get any occupational (and/or private) pension on top.

Yes, anyone who has not paid full contributions will not get a full pension under either system, and anyone on the old pension who did not pay SERPS will get less than those with the full new pension, but that really isn’t everyone. Someone who did pay SERPS and has a widow’s pension can get significantly more than the top rate of new pension, to which nothing can be added.

I’m not sure what is being argued for here. It seems that it’s just a generalised dig at the government - if not, what is it that you want to see, Molly and Allira?

Allira

growstuff

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

If they are, they'll be receiving the same or more than people on the new state pension.

But their income may be just above the limit because they may have a small works pension.

Therefore still the same amount less than someone on the new State Pension plus the same small private pension.

🤔

It really isn't that simple. Nobody with total income over the new state pension receives Pension Credit.

I'm not claiming that the way the state pension is worked out is fair, but it just isn't true that everybody on the old state pension is worse off than everybody on the new state pension, especially when factors such as the later retirement age, more NI contributions, loss of SERPs and the fact that occupational pensions (which mean loss of state pension) aren't subject to the triple lock.

I actually read the "small print" in 2011, when the additional year to wait for state pension was announced and I worked out that I wouldn't be that much better off with the new state pension for all sorts of reasons. As it is, I'll have to live to 84 to break even. Quite honestly, I'm not going to spend my remaining years feeling bitter about unfairness - I've got better things to do.

Incidentally, why didn't people make a fuss in 2011? I remember having a big moan, but nobody seemed to be listening.

Oh, I'm not bitter as you call it.

It's just another inequality in this unequal society of ours.
Rather shows successive governments couldn't organise a feast of pigeons in a cornfield without messing it up.

Allira

Oh, I'm not bitter as you call it.

It's just another inequality in this unequal society of ours.
Rather shows successive governments couldn't organise a feast of pigeons in a cornfield without messing it up.

I love your more polite but equally accurate version of the organise a p* up in a brewery.
👏👏👏

growstuff

Incidentally, why didn't people make a fuss in 2011? I remember having a big moan, but nobody seemed to be listening.

Who was in power in 2011?

Oh.

The Pensions Act 2007:

▪︎ Raising the pension age for women to 65 by 2020.
▪︎ Raising the pension age for both women and men from 65
to 68 between 2024 and 2046.

Doodledog

growstuff

Incidentally, why didn't people make a fuss in 2011? I remember having a big moan, but nobody seemed to be listening.

Who was in power in 2011?

Oh.

Well, it wasn't Labour.

I remember finding out that my state pension age had been put back by another year, but it was somewhat mitigated by finding out that my pension would increase. The headlines were all about the increase. Then I read the small print and realised that I'd lose the small amount of SERPs I'd accrued and that I'd be penalised for having opted out. I also realised that I'd never be eligible for Pension Credit. I wouldn't have received Widow's Pension anyway. I wasn't credited with HRP because I was working, so I wouldn't ever be eligible for a full state pension, despite having many more years over the minimum. I just huffed and puffed and wondered who's been responsible for gifting me loads of short straws.

Who was in power in 2007? 🤔

Allira

The Pensions Act 2007:

▪︎ Raising the pension age for women to 65 by 2020.
▪︎ Raising the pension age for both women and men from 65
to 68 between 2024 and 2046.

It was brought forward.

by 2020
Not in 2020

All's well that ends well, you do get nearly 30% more now.

The Pensions Act 2011 accelerated the increase in state pension age:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/19/notes/division/3#:~:text=The%20Act%20amends%20the%20timetable,reach%2066%20by%20October%202020.

There were also some other changes.

There is consensus between the parties regarding pension age rises, it’s not a political football. A brief history from the Commons Library:
The Pensions Act 1995 included provision to increase the SPA for women from 60 to 65 in stages between April 2010 and 2020, to bring it into line with that for men.
The Pensions Act 2007 made provision to increase the SPA from 65 to 68 in stages between 2024 and 2046.
The Pensions Act 2011 brought forward the completion of the increase in women’s SPA to 65 to November 2018, and the increase to 66 for both men and women to October 2020.
Section 26 of the Pensions Act 2014 brought forward the increase in the SPA for men and women to 67 to between 2026 and 2028.

Allira

^by 2020^
Not in 2020

All's well that ends well, you do get nearly 30% more now.

No, I don't.

I didn't start receiving SP until 2021, when I was 66 and I don't receive the full amount, despite 47 years of contributions.