But does he really 'understand'?

“You can hear the ladder clattering down as she self-righteously pulled it away.” Dickens

“Yes you are right. Everything is about money and self self self.

Compete, thrive, step on others.” Eggplant

It turns out Thatcher had it right with her no such thing as society when so many put their own interests before the greater good.

None of us can know what another person understands. All we can do is be as clear as possible when we speak and pay as much attention as possible when we listen. Political advisers are very aware of the phrases which will sway people's thinking (if only subconsciously). We all want other people to understand us, especially when they're making big decisions which affect our lives, so just hearing the word gives us a little splash of positive dopamine! Personally, I'd rather navigate Starmer's vocabulary than hear the endless evasive, self-serving lies of the last lot.

LizzieDrip

IMO that phrase ‘everything has been given a price and nothing a value’ succinctly answers the earlier question ‘how did we end up like this?’

Yes you are right. Everything is about money and self self self.

Compete, thrive, step on others.

Mollygo

Having been reprimanded on GN for referring to the continuing impact of actions of PMs prior to the last conservative government, I am delighted to see that its now allowed by the same people who criticised me for doing it.
Even better since I agree with all the complaints about governments back as far as when Harold Wilson was in power.

I can't be exact, but I do believe that most governments leave legacies that have had a negative impact on society and which can't be overturned at the drop of a hat - or even ever. And that certainly includes Blair's New Labour.

So I personally think you've been unfairly reprimanded.

LizzieDrip

Doddledog yes, yes, yes👏👏👏

... and 4 'yesses' from me, too!

The legacy of the policy that bought Thatcher so many votes is still advantaging some over others generations later, and many of the beneficiaries persist in saying that they have worked hard, as though those on the losing side have not.
Doodledog
👏👏👏

I remember a conversation in my cafeteria-in-the-park days that went something like this:

"It's time the unions were put a stop to - and people realise that this current socialism doesn't work"

... this - from a woman who'd had all the advantages of that socialism-that-didn't-work and the rights under which she'd prospered which those unions had fought for.

You can hear the ladder clattering down as she self-righteously pulled it away.

Having been reprimanded on GN for referring to the continuing impact of actions of PMs prior to the last conservative government, I am delighted to see that its now allowed by the same people who criticised me for doing it.
Even better since I agree with all the complaints about governments back as far as when Harold Wilson was in power.

I agree with your sentiments Doodledog and that is why I blame Thatcher in the main but self interest meant the end of society, as mentioned by the first paragraph in your post 10.42.

You must live in a very politically aware area. I tend to see a poster in maybe one in 100 houses round here - definitely not 90% of them.

In any case, I don't blame people for buying council houses. It was a no-brainer for the people concerned, but we are living with the consequences of the policy many years later.

Voting Labour is not synonymous with communism, and even communists have human levels of self-interest. People do what they can at the time, and it doesn't make sense to criticise them for that - the criticism is for the policies, not the people.

I spoke of my own estate of around 40 homes Doodledog, people I still see, those whose funerals I still attend, send Christmas cards to, and have coffee with when I pop to see my Dad.

At the last election and previous ones their homes had Labour posters in the windows as they always did and I doubt very much they are shy Tories!

Really? Are there stats for the voting intentions of people who buy houses? Who knew?

“ The legacy of the policy that bought Thatcher so many votes is still advantaging some over others generations later, and many of the beneficiaries persist in saying that they have worked hard, as though those on the losing side have not.” Doodledog

On the council estate I came from 90% of the homes were purchased by Labour supporters, Tories had already saved up their deposits and moved on to buy their own homes freeing a house for another couple. Thatcher knew exactly how to bribe those socialists…and some of them are still moaning that their kids can’t get a council house!

RosiesMaw2

It’s like “That’s a very good question…” or “I’m glad you asked me that…” - regular ploys to allow “thinking time”.
I’m leaning towards team platitude

Yes, lots of politicians do it, usually when they don't have a clue and are scrambling around for a politician's answer.

IMO that phrase ‘everything has been given a price and nothing a value’ succinctly answers the earlier question ‘how did we end up like this?’

The main reason conservatives were elected back then was because of Labour’s inability to control the unions. Back then Labour’s efforts were put in to curbing wage increases. The U turn in policy since those days is good news for present day unions now Labour have plenty of money to fulfil their demands, since they were suffering the same attempts to curb them. under the last government.

Doddledog yes, yes, yes👏👏👏

Oh. I thought I had quoted the post about how Thatcherism was about individualism at the top of my post.

Yes, and the end of 'society'. Everything was given a price and nothing a value, so secure tenancies with fair rents became a thing of the past, and, like dominos, securities of all kinds went with them.

Families had to pay rent to those who'd bought the houses they would once have rented from the council, for more money and with no security. They could no longer manage on one salary, so both parents had to work, and pay out most of their earnings for childcare. Men lost their 'place' as breadwinner and more families split, as women realised they could support their children without them. Greater independence for women on one had, but less security for families on the other.

Everyone had to work for longer and longer hours to pay their own mortgage if they were lucky, and to pay the mortgages of other people if they weren't. The legacy of the policy that bought Thatcher so many votes is still advantaging some over others generations later, and many of the beneficiaries persist in saying that they have worked hard, as though those on the losing side have not.

At the same time as they tell everyone about how they were able to manage on one average salary, forgetting that their mortgage was comparatively cheap (enough to be payable by one person on an average salary), and that although interest rates were high when they were paying the mortgage they were also high when they could afford to save. They criticise families with two working parents, and mothers (rarely fathers) who use breakfast clubs and nurseries so they can get to work in time - which they have to do to earn enough to pay higher and higher rents. Saving for a deposit is all but impossible when rents are high and interest rates low, but young people are blamed for buying ready-made coffee or eating avocados.

And heaven forfend that any of the beneficiaries' money is used for the greater good, even after they're dead. Even a tax free million pounds is not enough, so they post about finding ways to get out of paying more tax on the money they were basically given for living where they did.

I'm not saying all Tory voters are like this - I know they aren't. But I also know many others who claim to be in favour of fair competition yet fail to recognise that the system that put them where they are has done so by disadvantaging many others. Hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance? I don't know, but I'm not sure it matters, really.

I very much hope that the new government can reverse some of this. Not because I want a race to the bottom - I absolutely don't. I think we should all keep what we earn, and be able to improve our lives by our own efforts. I would just like to see unearned money shared out more, and to stop the system where some are working really hard to pay the bills of others.

LizzieDrip

*Maizie D* hear, hear! 👏👏👏

Sadly, many people are expecting this Labour government to overturn the results of 50 years of ideologically market driven economic policy overnight. It’s impossible!

I second that "hear, hear".
👏👏

I remember well that period running up to the election that installed Thatcher's government - at the time I was working behind the counter of an outside cafeteria in a park in Twickenham where there were quite a few well-heeled who came to drink our 'special' Earl-Grey tea at weekends. Lots of political discussions back and forth.

The thing is, it was the well-heeled Earl-Grey tea-drinkers mostly who were warning about the iniquity of Margaret Thatcher's ideology.

Changing the rules re WFA so quickly and thus leaving people with little chance to prepare seems unnecessarily harsh.

And, the increase in pensions would have happened anyway, comes after the winter bills and is retrospective.

So, I don't think he understands.

I had great hope for this new Labour Government - it's not looking quite so good now. I am disappointed.

How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?

Because successive governments, since even before Harold Wilson’s time have sought to improve things.
Their improvements have not succeeded.
The rich have got richer, the poor, poorer.
Now, to make matters worse, thanks to the internet, we quickly see how much milking of the system has gone on by MPs and their friends.
Add to that, people being told by others, that things they can’t afford are their own fault or as a result of their own poor organisation. . .

Maizie D hear, hear! 👏👏👏

Sadly, many people are expecting this Labour government to overturn the results of 50 years of ideologically market driven economic policy overnight. It’s impossible!

growstuff

Oreo

Doodledog

I am also on here less than usual, as it's so toxic.

But it isn’t toxic IMO 😄
It’s just airing of differing views. If you or anyone else can’t bear seeing criticism of the Labour government or PM then probably best I agree to not look at the political threads as much.
Tbf to Conservative posters, they have had to put up with a lot of criticism of their Party, some of which they will have agreed with and some not, but they had to take it on the chin.Now it’s Labour’s turn in the hot seat and it may make you uncomfortable but you have now to take it on the chin too.

Presumably that includes you, as you've claimed to be a Labour voter.

I'm so grateful, I'm not usually a Labour voter and have never voted Conservative. It's quite amusing watching people take chunks out of each other.

My family are Labour voters since way back when but that doesn’t stop any of us from criticising policies and actions.
Unlike you I don’t find it amusing watching people take chunks out of each other.

MaizieD

^How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?^
I remember the Electricity Board, the Gas Board, the Council,, the Railways, the Youth Service.
Nobody was cowering under a blanket.

'We' ended up like this because 'we' voted for Thatcher and the tories in 1979 and she destroyed the 'mixed economy' which had been improving life chances and moving us to a more equable distribution of wealth since the end of WW2.

'We' are here because this is what an ideology which wants to destroy state involvement in provision of services to the population brings us to. The hallowed 'market' has proved to be a false god which serves only the wealthy. But 'we' go on worshipping it just the same....

The cult of the individual.

RosiesMaw2

It’s like “That’s a very good question…” or “I’m glad you asked me that…” - regular ploys to allow “thinking time”.
I’m leaning towards team platitude

Yes, when anyone - but especially politicos - start their reply to an awkward question with any of the above, then that certainly means they're thinking "I bloody well hate you for asking me THAT!"

Ha! Ha! Ha!

How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?
I remember the Electricity Board, the Gas Board, the Council,, the Railways, the Youth Service.
Nobody was cowering under a blanket.

'We' ended up like this because 'we' voted for Thatcher and the tories in 1979 and she destroyed the 'mixed economy' which had been improving life chances and moving us to a more equable distribution of wealth since the end of WW2.

'We' are here because this is what an ideology which wants to destroy state involvement in provision of services to the population brings us to. The hallowed 'market' has proved to be a false god which serves only the wealthy. But 'we' go on worshipping it just the same....