But does he really 'understand'?

That is separate from how I feel about the reactions on here though. I can't help wondering at the dissonance between wanting a fuel benefit to be paid to all pensioners and wanting to see benefit claimants denied the right to use food banks if they've dared to have their nails done. My objection to means-testing is at least consistent.

Are there many who think the fuel benefit should be paid to all pensioners without any clawback through taxation? My objection is that the notice given really isn't sufficient for the hardest pressed to rejig their budgets. As with all means testing the cliff edge in this case will result in some extra hardship for those just above PC level. I have never joined in the "iphone, nails, big TV" comments mostly because I think they're ill informed at best and just plain nasty at worst. People's circumstances can change in a heartbeat, and outsiders are unlikely to know the details. Those last comments from you and MissAdventure seem to imply that anyone concerned about this WFA measure has an ulterior motive and the concern wasn't genuine.

It has never been wholesale, across the board condemnation of people on benefits.
There have always been people who will point out how some advice is outdated, not doable, or factually wrong.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

MissAdventure

It has never been wholesale, across the board condemnation of people on benefits.
There have always been people who will point out how some advice is outdated, not doable, or factually wrong.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

Perhaps because we can relate to the misery that some will endure when it's really, really cold - cold and dark when they might be afraid to turn up the heating, or even put it on for an hour over the meagre limit they've set themselves?

It's a long while back now, but I still remember trying to keep warm in front of a one-bar electric fire in a cold room, breathing in cold air whilst at the same time getting mottled legs from the heat from electric fire - because I was, at the time, pretty impoverished. But I was young and healthy.

Dickens

MissAdventure

It has never been wholesale, across the board condemnation of people on benefits.
There have always been people who will point out how some advice is outdated, not doable, or factually wrong.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

Perhaps because we can relate to the misery that some will endure when it's really, really cold - cold and dark when they might be afraid to turn up the heating, or even put it on for an hour over the meagre limit they've set themselves?

It's a long while back now, but I still remember trying to keep warm in front of a one-bar electric fire in a cold room, breathing in cold air whilst at the same time getting mottled legs from the heat from electric fire - because I was, at the time, pretty impoverished. But I was young and healthy.

£200 wouldn't have bought you much electricity over the whole winter. Maybe local authorities should be responsible for making sure that all the homes in their area are as well-insulated as they can be and all grants for solar panels and efficient boilers are applied for.

Rosie51

^That is separate from how I feel about the reactions on here though. I can't help wondering at the dissonance between wanting a fuel benefit to be paid to all pensioners and wanting to see benefit claimants denied the right to use food banks if they've dared to have their nails done. My objection to means-testing is at least consistent.^

Are there many who think the fuel benefit should be paid to all pensioners without any clawback through taxation? My objection is that the notice given really isn't sufficient for the hardest pressed to rejig their budgets. As with all means testing the cliff edge in this case will result in some extra hardship for those just above PC level. I have never joined in the "iphone, nails, big TV" comments mostly because I think they're ill informed at best and just plain nasty at worst. People's circumstances can change in a heartbeat, and outsiders are unlikely to know the details. Those last comments from you and MissAdventure seem to imply that anyone concerned about this WFA measure has an ulterior motive and the concern wasn't genuine.

I agree with you about the notice period. I have always had to budget in advance very carefully. In my case, I build up a surplus on my fuel account during the summer, so pay the same over the winter months. I've never "needed" the money to pay my fuel bills, despite being just £13pw over the limit for Pension Credit. However, the timing of the allowance has meant that my Christmases have been a bit easier. For me, what the withdrawal of the allowance has meant is that I've had to juggle finances around a bit. I still want to buy Christmas presents, so it will be my choice to put some other things on hold. A bit more notice would have helped.

PS. I won't freeze!

So MollyGo you’re saying that a programme on Radio 4 presented information about Smart meters turning off domestic appliances in the future, and it was so shocking to you that you couldn’t believe what you were hearing.

Wow! I think we all need to hear about this! What programme was it please?

You’ll need to look it up.
I’m busy living a life, like you were earlier.

Ok I’ll do that. Can I just confirm (I’m sure you can remember this bit) … it was Radio 4 this morning?

It’s old news
watt-logic.com/2020/09/30/smart-meters-2/
There’s a 2020 thread on Mumsnet too.

Those last comments from you and MissAdventure seem to imply that anyone concerned about this WFA measure has an ulterior motive and the concern wasn't genuine.

That was never my intention, Rosie. I don't think that at all. I think the problem is that a more general conversation is littered with unpleasant comments, and I've probably replied to more general points with a comment inspired by an unpleasant one. I hope that makes sense, and that you accept that I am in no way suggesting that you, and others like you are anything other than genuine.

I agree with MissA, however, that the general tone on here has until now been that those on benefits are poor managers at best, and shiftless scroungers at worst - they should be able to feed their children without resort to food banks or breakfast clubs, they spend money on TVs, phones and gel nails that should be spent on food - that sort of thing. Those of us who have pointed out that this is far from the whole picture have been accused of being loony lefties, communists and so on. Now that the people saying those things have lost their WFA, however, they are suddenly furious about older people not getting universal benefits - something that just didn't happen before.

I don't want to start naming names and scouring old threads for evidence of this, but it is very much a feeling that I have. We've gone from 'how can we avoid IHT if Labour get in?' to 'I am very concerned about people going without their £200' almost overnight, coinciding with a Labour victory. This, coupled with all the slogans and name-calling (again, not by everyone) is making the place very unpleasant, which is emphatically not a euphemism for 'people are criticising Labour'.

Thanks Casdon. Nothing to be concerned about then🤷‍♀️

MollyGo if my fridge freezer gets mysteriously turned off, I promise It’ll let you know!

I do understand the concern in as much as it could result in people’s power supply being turned off remotely if they get into arrears, which is Big Brotheresque, (is that a word, probably not) - but as it’s been a possibility for a while I won’t be losing any sleep at the moment.

I love it when people use sarcasm to accuse people of lying. It shows what sort of people they are.
You don’t have to believe me to make it true LD. I know it was what I heard today, so your sly accusations make you look bad, and leave me unmoved.

growstuff

Dickens

MissAdventure

It has never been wholesale, across the board condemnation of people on benefits.
There have always been people who will point out how some advice is outdated, not doable, or factually wrong.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

I still have rarely seen this level of concern, regardless.

Perhaps because we can relate to the misery that some will endure when it's really, really cold - cold and dark when they might be afraid to turn up the heating, or even put it on for an hour over the meagre limit they've set themselves?

It's a long while back now, but I still remember trying to keep warm in front of a one-bar electric fire in a cold room, breathing in cold air whilst at the same time getting mottled legs from the heat from electric fire - because I was, at the time, pretty impoverished. But I was young and healthy.

£200 wouldn't have bought you much electricity over the whole winter. Maybe local authorities should be responsible for making sure that all the homes in their area are as well-insulated as they can be and all grants for solar panels and efficient boilers are applied for.

Those who are frugal with their spending might well find that £200 useful over a particularly cold spell which lasts maybe for a couple of weeks in winter, though.

Obviously it doesn't solve the problem of high energy bills nor badly insulated houses.

I think that all but the most self-absorbed will understand that some people will suffer as a result of the withdrawal. Claiming the monopoly on being able to relate to others is not very fair, and does not address the issue, which is that few people are defending the policy.

What some of us are saying is that it is being used as a stick to beat KS by people who have previously (ie when they were not personally affected) expressed no compassion for benefit claimants whatsoever - in fact have written them off as scroungers. It is only when they themselves will lose out that they care. Otherwise, mothers using breakfast clubs - can’t be bothered to boil an egg. People using food banks - should buy food before getting their nails done. People in poverty - should budget better and batch-cooking should be taught in schools. Etc.

Where was the collective outrage when disabled people were subject to tighter regulations when claiming PIP? When the 2-child benefit cap was introduced? When child benefit was means-tested?

There are times when I long for a 'like' button. Well said, Dd. 👏

I was utterly opposed to the decisions relating to child benefit, for many reasons, I suppose for me my expectations of a labour government are higher.

Isn't it an utter disgrace that people are having to wonder if they can heat their homes? Well ,some people.

How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?
I remember the Electricity Board, the Gas Board, the Council,, the Railways, the Youth Service.
Nobody was cowering under a blanket.

How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?
I remember the Electricity Board, the Gas Board, the Council,, the Railways, the Youth Service.
Nobody was cowering under a blanket.

'We' ended up like this because 'we' voted for Thatcher and the tories in 1979 and she destroyed the 'mixed economy' which had been improving life chances and moving us to a more equable distribution of wealth since the end of WW2.

'We' are here because this is what an ideology which wants to destroy state involvement in provision of services to the population brings us to. The hallowed 'market' has proved to be a false god which serves only the wealthy. But 'we' go on worshipping it just the same....

RosiesMaw2

It’s like “That’s a very good question…” or “I’m glad you asked me that…” - regular ploys to allow “thinking time”.
I’m leaning towards team platitude

Yes, when anyone - but especially politicos - start their reply to an awkward question with any of the above, then that certainly means they're thinking "I bloody well hate you for asking me THAT!"

Ha! Ha! Ha!

MaizieD

^How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?^
I remember the Electricity Board, the Gas Board, the Council,, the Railways, the Youth Service.
Nobody was cowering under a blanket.

'We' ended up like this because 'we' voted for Thatcher and the tories in 1979 and she destroyed the 'mixed economy' which had been improving life chances and moving us to a more equable distribution of wealth since the end of WW2.

'We' are here because this is what an ideology which wants to destroy state involvement in provision of services to the population brings us to. The hallowed 'market' has proved to be a false god which serves only the wealthy. But 'we' go on worshipping it just the same....

The cult of the individual.

growstuff

Oreo

Doodledog

I am also on here less than usual, as it's so toxic.

But it isn’t toxic IMO 😄
It’s just airing of differing views. If you or anyone else can’t bear seeing criticism of the Labour government or PM then probably best I agree to not look at the political threads as much.
Tbf to Conservative posters, they have had to put up with a lot of criticism of their Party, some of which they will have agreed with and some not, but they had to take it on the chin.Now it’s Labour’s turn in the hot seat and it may make you uncomfortable but you have now to take it on the chin too.

Presumably that includes you, as you've claimed to be a Labour voter.

I'm so grateful, I'm not usually a Labour voter and have never voted Conservative. It's quite amusing watching people take chunks out of each other.

My family are Labour voters since way back when but that doesn’t stop any of us from criticising policies and actions.
Unlike you I don’t find it amusing watching people take chunks out of each other.

Maizie D hear, hear! 👏👏👏

Sadly, many people are expecting this Labour government to overturn the results of 50 years of ideologically market driven economic policy overnight. It’s impossible!

How have we ended up like this ? A huge gap between the haves and have nots? Any semblance of public services detroyed?

Because successive governments, since even before Harold Wilson’s time have sought to improve things.
Their improvements have not succeeded.
The rich have got richer, the poor, poorer.
Now, to make matters worse, thanks to the internet, we quickly see how much milking of the system has gone on by MPs and their friends.
Add to that, people being told by others, that things they can’t afford are their own fault or as a result of their own poor organisation. . .

Changing the rules re WFA so quickly and thus leaving people with little chance to prepare seems unnecessarily harsh.

And, the increase in pensions would have happened anyway, comes after the winter bills and is retrospective.

So, I don't think he understands.

I had great hope for this new Labour Government - it's not looking quite so good now. I am disappointed.