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But does he really 'understand'?

(269 Posts)
kittylester Wed 25-Sept-24 07:42:56

Keir Starmer prefaces lots of his replies to questions with 'I understand why you asked that' or similar words.

Is it a platitude or does he really 'understand'?

I'm not sure.

Rosie51 Thu 03-Oct-24 23:07:06

I'm against corporations not paying their rightful share of tax to the UK but Amazon are not alone. Here are some more

Google (hope you're all refraining from using that too)
Starbucks
Facebook
Ebay
Apple (best stop using those iPads, iPhones etc)
Boots
Nestlé (think how many brands come under that roof)

and that's just a sample. Full disclosure, yes I have Amazon Prime, saves me a fortune on delivery costs, and many things I can get delivered next day. It is on governments to close the loopholes. Aren't we being told that all the freebies enjoyed by our masters fall within the legal framework, the tax avoidance schemes these companies employ also fall within the legal framework. otherwise I assume they'd be being prosecuted for tax evasion?

Allira Thu 03-Oct-24 23:12:01

MissAdventure

And they charge to deliver.
Nope.

Not all, as long as you order over a certain value of goods, which isn't always possible of course.

Anyway, I've got a Kindle, can't read books in bed!

Galaxy Fri 04-Oct-24 08:55:19

People use services because they are good. It's why Amazon is so popular. It is excellent at whst it does.

TerriBull Fri 04-Oct-24 10:01:41

I'd be a liar if I said I didn't use the services of Amazon, for me that started during lockdown where we were so reliant on deliveries.

I do abhor the way so many large corporations don't pay the amount of tax that should be commensurate with their turnover. Yes we could boycott them, but really boycotts to have any effect need an absolute groundswell to change anything. In any case, it's really it's up to governments to sort out some multi lateral strategy to make them pay what would be a fair amount. It seems to me there is a conspiracy of complicity in the developed world in allowing these behemoths to shirk what should be their dues. Loosely in the words of a Scandinavian spokesperson at Davos who addressed a gathering there a couple of years ago, if there was some equitable tax collected from those who made such huge amounts of money, then there wouldn't be the need for all the philanthropic grandstanding that goes on, it's kind of obvious, but there doesn't seem to be any will amongst governments to change anything.

David49 Sat 05-Oct-24 01:16:24

I’ve had a lot of experience with a variety of businesses and 2 I would not touch with a bargepole are high street shops and restaurants, overheads, Rent, rates, insurance, staff are all going to kill the profit. Locally I see them come and go very quickly, the only ones that survive are chain fast food, take aways and charity shops. Having said that a few do survive, working long hours for very little and would earn more stacking shelves at Tesco.

It is indeed up to the government to stop blatant tax evasion by mostly overseas companies

MaizieD Sat 05-Oct-24 12:23:05

It seems to me there is a conspiracy of complicity in the developed world in allowing these behemoths to shirk what should be their dues.

Of course there is. For hundreds of years countries have been run by the wealthy for the benefit of the wealthy. The protection of 'property' was their only objective, 'property' being both tangible, as in land and possessions, and intangible, as in money/wealth. Those without 'property' didn't count, in fact, looking at the feudal system and slavery, a significant number of the propertyless were themselves 'property'.

The dominance of the pursuit of wealth has come to such a pitch that some believe that governments are powerless to control the financial markets, which exist for the accumulation of wealth;

When an editorial in the Guardian yesterday points out that a few words from the Governor of the Bank of England suggesting that the BoE might be 'more aggressive in cutting interest rates' caused a drop in the value of the pound on the foreign exchange markets, you begin to wonder just who is controlling what.

I am not against a market economy as opposed to a communistic 'planned' economy, but until some sort of mediation is achieved between the interests of the wealthy and those of the non wealthy the behemoths will always have the upper hand.

Forgive me for posting a long passage from Adam Smith's the wealth of Nations', but he explains it, not exactly in a nutshell, because no 18th C writer is succinct, but sufficiently well for what he says to chime very much with what we see today.

The interest of this third order, therefore, has not the same connexion with the general interest of the society, as that of the other two. Merchants and master manufacturers are, in this order, the two classes of people who commonly employ the largest capitals, and who by their wealth draw to themselves the greatest share of the public consideration. As during their whole lives they are engaged in plans and projects, they have frequently more acuteness of understanding than the greater part of country gentlemen.
As their thoughts, however, are commonly exercised rather about the interest of their own particular branch of business. than about that of the society, their judgment, even when given with the greatest candour (which it has not been upon every occasion), is much more to be depended upon with regard to the former of those two objects, than with regard to the latter. Their superiority over the country gentleman is, not so much in their knowledge of the public interest, as in their having a better knowledge of their own interest than he has of his. It is by this superior knowledge of their own interest that they have frequently imposed upon his generosity, and persuaded him to give up both his own interest and that of the public, from a very simple but honest conviction, that their interest, and not his, was the interest of the public. The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufactures,is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the market, and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers. *To widen the market may frequently be agreeable enough to the interest of the public*; (Amazon!) but to narrow the competition must always be against it, and can only serve to enable the dealers, by raising their profits above what they naturally would be, to levy, for their own benefit, an absurd tax upon the rest of their fellow-citizens.

The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.

LizzieDrip Sat 05-Oct-24 13:14:32

Interesting MaizieD.

Also interesting that, in her recent Conference speech, Badenoch said that ‘Government is the servant of the market’!

Wyllow3 Sat 05-Oct-24 13:42:03

I looked up that reference (quoted from her final speech) but she doesn't add what she really means by this?

David49 Sat 05-Oct-24 14:05:32

“The dominance of the pursuit of wealth has come to such a pitch that some believe that governments are powerless to control the financial markets, which exist for the accumulation of wealth;”

Individual democratic governments with free trade are
powerless to control financial markets, the combined power of investors/speculators is much greater than even the US. Only a totally controlled economy like China can ignore markets if it chooses, the population is totally controlled by the Communist Party and cannot rebel.
The government allows individual enterprise only within certain limits that are approved and obey the central policies. It also aids or subsidizes companies, for example, you can order a dress from a Chinese company and it will be sent free by airfreight next day to your door, this can only be done by massive state involvement. (Try to DIY airfreight and see how long it takes and costs)

In third world countries even in remote areas there is a Chinese owned supermarket undercutting the locals, that’s the price of development aid.

Will the BoE lower interest rates causing a drop in sterling?,
probably not, that would put prices of so many imports up. Currently much more depends on the overall shape of the budget, that could cause a rise in sterling or a fall. The BoE will use interest rates to stabilize the economy, volatility only benefits speculators.

MaizieD Sat 05-Oct-24 14:19:07

With respect, David, I think you've misread my post. The editorial, which I assume would have been written by the Guardian's economics editor, didn't speculate that lowering interest rates 'might' cause a drop in sterling. He said that Bailey's words actually did cause a drop in sterling, (albeit, it seems, a temporary one). I think the editor would be in a position to know that.

Are you happy with the fact that governments are in hoc to the financial markets? I'm not.

MaizieD Sat 05-Oct-24 14:20:58

Wyllow3

I looked up that reference (quoted from her final speech) but she doesn't add what she really means by this?

I think it means that she's not fit to be in charge of a government.

David49 Sun 06-Oct-24 02:32:51

“Are you happy with the fact that governments are in hoc to the financial markets? I'm not.”

No, but it’s the global system we have, anyone can buy and sell
most currencies, automatic trading is capable of buying and selling hundreds of times an hour. Speculators have no other aim but to make a profit buying and selling, they don’t care of the consequences.

We saw with the Truss debacle, say the wrong thing can cause a collapse quickly, on the other hand Starmers policy so far had seen a modest rise in sterling. With speculation that that WFA and other policies will get watered down in the budget, profits have been taken and sterling has fallen back. We will see soon enough what the full budget looks like.

Mt61 Sun 06-Oct-24 13:00:29

I think he’s the least charismatic PM we have ever had in this country.
He’s gone back on everything he promised, he’s a hypocrite (they all are), I think if they had mentioned getting rid of the WFA, I don’t many people would have voted for them TBH.

David49 Sun 06-Oct-24 13:19:00

Mt61

I think he’s the least charismatic PM we have ever had in this country.
He’s gone back on everything he promised, he’s a hypocrite (they all are), I think if they had mentioned getting rid of the WFA, I don’t many people would have voted for them TBH.

Thats rubbish, you are saying that Truss, Thatcher and even Major are charismatic, all you want is giveaways, without any responsibility. WFA is a giveaway to the majority that receive it, and there are plenty of other benefits given to those that don’t need them.

Doodledog Sun 06-Oct-24 13:30:12

What has Keir Starmer 'gone back on'? I accept that he has done things he didn't say he was going to do, but obviously any government has to adapt to changes in circumstance. We heard an awful lot about 'unprecedented' happenings when the Tories didn't deliver. I'd have thought a £22billion deficit was pretty unprecedented too?

Galaxy Sun 06-Oct-24 13:45:32

I see Sue Grey has gone or am I late to this news.

Doodledog Sun 06-Oct-24 13:47:21

Agreed, David.

David49 Sun 06-Oct-24 13:50:43

Doodledog

What has Keir Starmer 'gone back on'? I accept that he has done things he didn't say he was going to do, but obviously any government has to adapt to changes in circumstance. We heard an awful lot about 'unprecedented' happenings when the Tories didn't deliver. I'd have thought a £22billion deficit was pretty unprecedented too?

Agreed, we know the Tories made giveaways that had to be paid for later, the cost probably is higher than expected but was widely publicized at the time.
Sunak knew it was unlikely he could win the GE the polls told him that, so handicapped Labour as much as possible.