Assisted dying

Too often what was rare becomes far more commonplace. During the pandemic DNRs were slapped on elderly patients and care home residents like they were going out of fashion.
An in-law, not elderly, but with terminal cancer had one slapped on his records against his wishes and his wife's. They argued with the hospital who agreed to treatment but insisted the DNR was staying but they would place a note of the patient's and family objections. He fought through it all and survived another 2 years. He and his family treasured every moment. He was lucky that while in ICU a doctor ignored the DNR and resuscitated him.
My fear is that what starts out as an altruistic act can over time become something much darker. Of course the 'be kind' part of me wants people not to suffer, whether that be physical pain or mental anguish, but the slippery slope is always there.

theworriedwell

Jane43

Blinko

I’m in favour of choice at the end of life but also have concerns that some could be coerced. Safeguards would need to be put in place.

I read that in one country where there is choice - I think Canada was mentioned - where the means to end one’s life was made available, in the end up to 60% did not take that option.

I think the option should be there.

We have experience of this with relatives in Canada. My husband’s aunt was in her early nineties, she had always been active but in later years her mobility was limited, her eyesight was fading and she was having problems with her hearing. All the things she used to enjoy were taken away: walking, reading, puzzles, quizzes and dancing. She told us she prayed every night not to wake up the next morning. She applied for MAID and her application was granted, she was able to choose the time and place and who to have with her. She had time to say her goodbyes to her nearest and dearest and her two daughters were with her at the end. Soon after this my sister-in-law’s husband was diagnosed with MND, called ALS in Canada, he could have opted for MAID but chose not to, his suffering was very traumatic for my SIL and her husband’s family but it was his choice. I’m sure there will be safeguards in place and I hope the option will be there for everybody in this country who wants to end their suffering.

Wasn't there a scandal about a homeless disabled man in Canada being offered this as a solution to his homeless problem? I'm not convinced about the safeguards.

I don’t know about the case you refer to, I know systems vary from Province to Province. My husband’s aunt lived in British Columbia and she had to have her application granted by two doctors I believe.

That sounds like I saw a lady on YouTube choose for herself.

She was just totally sedated, and asleep, at home, and comfortable.
That would be my preference, I think.

CocoPops

Medical assistance in dying (M.A.I.D) is lawful here in Canada. I had a close friend who opted for M.A.I.D. She had lived with a chronic illness since childhood which worsened over the years, requiring spells in hospital. She had lived a happy and independent life and always maintained she would never go into a residential home. At 82 years old her condition worsened and she landed up in hospital. Very frail but totally "with it" mentally. She had reached the stage where independent living wasn't possible and said, "CocoPops, I can't look after myself anymore more. I want M.A.I.D." (She had been considering M.A.I.D. for 3 months.) Once the arrangements were made, she was relaxed, seemed happy and
my good friend died at a time of her choosing with her family at the bedside.Of course I was devastated but grateful she had the choice.

That sounds to me like a good ending. It's what I think I would choose if I could. I sincerely hope that MPs vote to give us that choice.

Being in pain is not the only reason why people may feel their quality of life isn't good any more.

Palliative care, whilst wonderful for some, is very, very far from that for others, too.

keepingquiet Why do people assume everybody dies in great pain? As a former nurse for twenty years and lots of deaths I rarely came across this. A similar situation with my family members- good end of life care ensures this does not happen in people who are terminally ill

I'm not assuming that and volunteering in a hospice for years directly working with patients, I am well aware of what can be done in good palliative care. I am also well aware of the fact that a) palliative care does not necessarily create a quality of life that someone feels is worth living! b) appropriate palliative care is not always available or even considered in hospitals when "preserving life" is the driving force for medical personnel.

Hospices are working to widen their influence on good palliative care in hospitals; care homes; availability in the home which is good but more funding is needed! We have an ageing population with increasing frailty needs as people live longer!

And even with all that surely people with a life limiting illness and only 6 months to live are entitled to have a say in when the quality of that life is just not worth it. The assisted dying bill is about those people not a much wider range.

Hmm..
It's hard enough trying to find someone to take you to the toilet, or help you to eat, in hospital at times.

I'm not convinced a big multi disciplinary meeting would be arranged each time someone changed their mind.

Oh yes of course they can and we should be able to change them if we want too.

Yes, exactly that.
We need to remember our own views can change too, though.

I don't want anyone's views to be used to decide my quality of life MissA.

I am hoping the vote will be for assisted dying but I doubt enough MPs will vote for it. Fingers crossed.

I don't want Esther Rantzen's views to be used to decide my quality of life.

As it was, my mum had a DNR on her file, which nobody had discussed with her, which the staff admitted to, eventually.

Galaxy

But that is what will happen. I suppose it depends if you think the coerced deaths of people with disabilities is a price worth paying.

I already said disabled people have their own choice. And so they should. Non-disabled people with unimaginable pain should have their own choice too, with safeguards in place. People in horrible pain should not be forced to live in horrible pain when their prognosis is death in 6 months but pain until that happens. I have seen people in palliative care. It does not always mean the terminally ill person is without pain. I think people should have the right to choose not to live in unendurable miserable pain but, if some choose that, that's their choice. Doctors who disagree should have the right to opt out just like they do on abortion

This time two years ago my lovely husband was entering end of life care. Stage 4 metastasised cancer and 3 strokes over the previous 3 days, the last one catastrophic.
On day 4 the doctor managing his care and said come in now. He’s very poorly. Yes, bring your daughters.
He was moved into a tiny side ward, we spent the last 4 days of his life in that room, taking turns to sleep on the chair , the camp bed or the floor.
He was given increasing morphine to help with pain and agitation. The staff couldn’t have offered better care to him, or to us. I remain for ever grateful for their professionalism and compassion. I’ve a special place in my heart for the ancillary staff - I wasn’t eating, they made run d’s of white bread toast and mugs of tea, nursing, ancillary, doctors hugged us.

By day 6 if we could have asked for his morphine to be increased to end his suffering, we would have done. One of my daughters wept, she said mum this is wrong, you wouldn’t let any of your dogs suffer like this. She was right 💖💙

But that is what will happen. I suppose it depends if you think the coerced deaths of people with disabilities is a price worth paying.

sweetpea

Yes, I agree with Bridie22 but why should MPs get a vote, surely it should be taken by us all?

What? Another referendum. I don't think I can stomach it tbh. After things happening in my family, I fully support the right to choose and that people should not be subjected to unimaginable pain and suffering just because some disabled people like Tammi G-T say they would be coerced when there would be safeguards and when people like Esther Ranzten are actually just saying they want to make their own choice and not be coerced by people like Tammi to suffer unendurable pain at end of life. We wouldn't let a dog suffer in the way people with terminal illnesses are expected to currently, and yes I have seen people in good palliative care who still want to be released from suffering. Nobody is saying disabled people should be coerced into assisted dying but why should people in horrible pain that even palliative care doesn't relieve be forced to endure it when they just want to have their own choice recognised.

Jane43

Blinko

I’m in favour of choice at the end of life but also have concerns that some could be coerced. Safeguards would need to be put in place.

I read that in one country where there is choice - I think Canada was mentioned - where the means to end one’s life was made available, in the end up to 60% did not take that option.

I think the option should be there.

We have experience of this with relatives in Canada. My husband’s aunt was in her early nineties, she had always been active but in later years her mobility was limited, her eyesight was fading and she was having problems with her hearing. All the things she used to enjoy were taken away: walking, reading, puzzles, quizzes and dancing. She told us she prayed every night not to wake up the next morning. She applied for MAID and her application was granted, she was able to choose the time and place and who to have with her. She had time to say her goodbyes to her nearest and dearest and her two daughters were with her at the end. Soon after this my sister-in-law’s husband was diagnosed with MND, called ALS in Canada, he could have opted for MAID but chose not to, his suffering was very traumatic for my SIL and her husband’s family but it was his choice. I’m sure there will be safeguards in place and I hope the option will be there for everybody in this country who wants to end their suffering.

Wasn't there a scandal about a homeless disabled man in Canada being offered this as a solution to his homeless problem? I'm not convinced about the safeguards.

Mental illness can cause the loss of both of those, arguably moreso.

Smileless2012

It isn't just about end of life care. Someone could be in pain and suffering physically and mentally for a year or more before they die.

For me it's about the quality of life as well as the quality of death.

So true, and loss of dignity and independence would be abhorrent to me.

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

A nightmare is watching someone with motor neurone disease paralysed from the neck down.

Not really.
It's just an example of the mindset of some of the important people.

Makes you wonder how they got where they did, and how many more are lurking around.

Couple that with governments, and even some families...

We send MPs to Parliament to decide things for us. We don't need a referendum on assisted dying. Look what happened with Brexit: all kinds of lies, misinformation, etc., and a result which divided the UK for many years to come.

Doctors giving prognosis would probably be medical rather than surgical, if that's any comfort.

I've just been reading about a neurosurgeon who, did surgery using the knife he used to cut up his sandwiches.

I'm not sure I'd want someone that sort given any say in my life or death.

Or any of the people who witnessed it and didn't say anything!!

I don't think so MissA, two doctors have to independently state that the patient has a terminal illness.

What I'm saying is that having been diagnosed, the patient could have a year or more to live and not wish to do so with increased pain which, loss of dignity etc which as well as being increasingly difficult to deal with physically, can be difficult emotionally and mentally.