Anniversary of Israeli massacre

Wyllow3
It isn’t justifiable. And until this is addressed and Palestinian refugees living in neighbouring countries are given the right to return, am not sure where we go in finding a solution to this problem. Obviously if Palestinians are not treated the same as Israelis with the same rights regarding their land and homes I don’t see a peaceable transition.

www.un.org/unispal/document/human-rights-council-hears-that-700000-israeli-settlers-are-living-illegally-in-the-occupied-west-bank-meeting-summary-excerpts/

Yes the West Bank is being invaded, mile by mile, and the settlements are given IDF security and legal status as part of Israel.

But my constant attempts here to ask, "how is this justifiable" as it is basically an invasion politically permitted by Netanyahu and current war cabinet are not answered.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

A complicated but predictable story, firstly the strip belonged to Egypt then Palestinian refugees took refuge there until Israel occupied the strip in the late sixties until 2005. It never belonged to Israel they occupied it.
However, they say it is part of Israel, and most western governments kowtow to this, so we are where we are.

"Gaza is part of Israel"

Since when, David? It never was within the boundaries of the Israeli State.

Hamas will not give up easily.

I too think Hamas will not give way

Most know what life under Hamas has brought - death and destruction. Forget a 2 state system Israel will never agree, they have won and in control. They should return Palestinian land in the West Bank but that’s not part of the Gaza solution.

When the Nazis were defeated in WW2 the 4 powers
supervised reconstruction and politics, whatever happened in the past has to be put aside for the sake of the survivors.

Gaza is part of Israel so Israel must be responsible for security if Gasa had not been allowed to elect Hamas probably 50 thousand lives would have been saved. Not to mention countless billions to rebuild Gaza, however my guess is that Hamas will cling on to power for maybe months making the suffering worse.

No matter what state Gaza is in, there will be those wanting to form a new government for the future, but that’s a long way off yet.
There must be no more hamas involvement in it.

Anniebach

Has Israel invaded Palestine?

@annie not sure what you mean about Israel invading Palestine.

foxie48

We don't know what the want because it's 17 years since they were able to have an election and 75% of those eligible to vote were not eligible at the last election.

... and 75% of those eligible to vote were not eligible at the last election.

A large percentage. Who have only known life 'under' Hamas.

Decades after the Oslo Accords, all the major impediments remain. God alone knows whether there will ever be peace.

Has Israel invaded Palestine?

Wyllow3

I have brought this up before, but it's avoided. The West Bank is gradually being colonised with the backing of the IDF. It's very problematic talking about a 2 state solution when this is happening.

Yes this has to stop if there is to be a peaceful solution to this. Right now Palestinian land and properties are being seized and given to Israelis, this is not something new. If we are to see any solution for both sides both sides must be treated equally and with respect, Palestinians must be treated like Israelis or we do indeed have an apartheid system.

We don't know what the want because it's 17 years since they were able to have an election and 75% of those eligible to vote were not eligible at the last election.

It must follow that the majority would now want a two tier system

If - as reported by ABC News at the time, Hamas got 44% of the vote but, because of their election system, gained the majority seats, then clearly Hamas does not have the support of all Palestinians.

Would it be wrong to assume that among those who did not vote for Hamas, there would be some / many, who wanted the 2-State solution?

As Daniel Barenboim said, years ago now, "either we share what there is to share, or we go on killing each other".

I have brought this up before, but it's avoided. The West Bank is gradually being colonised with the backing of the IDF. It's very problematic talking about a 2 state solution when this is happening.

Am thinking Jordan as a good mediator.

David49

There isnt a plan for Gaza, maybe after Hamas surrender it will be clear. Palestinians will have to elect a peaceful government under the supervision of another power - probably Israel because nobody else wants the job.

Then proper aid can be supplied and rebuilding start.

Am not entirely sure that would work David, I mean it sounds like a plan but how can Palestinians even think straight let alone elect a government, most of them are driven out of their minds with grief, starvation, disease, and anger. And even if Israel did supervise a new government do you suppose the Palestinians would want thus? I imagine it would be much better to send in a peace keeping force with no skin in the game on either side until Gaza looks more like a place to call home than a moon scape and the people have been given the aid and medical care they need. Then I have no idea what happens. Probably a mediator from an Arab country that has no links with Hamas or Hezbollah could get together with Abbas and look at a means of one government representing all Palestinians. That is not what Netanyahu wants but that would have been a much better move than backing Hamas.
Israel should really steer clear of being involved in a supervisory role with this.

@annie is equally bad to accuse someone of supporting genocide if their opinions differ.

There isnt a plan for Gaza, maybe after Hamas surrender it will be clear. Palestinians will have to elect a peaceful government under the supervision of another power - probably Israel because nobody else wants the job.

Then proper aid can be supplied and rebuilding start.

foxie48

These are the people who went to the rally calling for "Conquer, Kick out and Resettle". This list was taken from a report in The Jerusalem Post, which I post a link to below.

"Ministers who spoke at the rally included National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir (Otzma Yehudit), Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich (RZP), Women’s Advancement Minister and Social Equality Minister May Golan (Likud), and Development of the Negev and Galilee Minister Yitzhak Wasserlauf (Otzma Yehudit).MKs who attended the rally included Ariel Kallner, Avihai Boaron, Osher Shekalim, Tally Gotliv, and Sasson Guetta from the Likud; Zvi Sukkot from the Religious Zionist Party; and Limor Son Har-Melech from Otzma Yehudit.
www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-825512

fwiw Israel Hayom, which is the most widely read newspaper in Israel is a free publication supported by adverts, a bit like Metro.

These are mainstream voices within Israel and in terms of us looking for peace opportunities and asking, "what is the plan for Gaza" it's entirely relevant to hear those voices. If our own country are at war and we were in danger we would want to know if the leadership was in fact pursuing the only options available if a cease fire were possible.

Quote Babs03 Wed 23-Oct-24 09:58:42
No individuals just those who tend to accuse anyone with a differing opinion of being pro terrorist. Which is a really horrible thing to say unless someone openly declares their support of Hamas etc.
Am not getting into an argy bargy with anyone in particular just putting it out there.

Then I have been accused of supporting genocide,

PM Netanyahu has allegedly been under investigation for
7 years, yet has won 2 elections in that time

Oh and while I think of it, Netanyahu's corruption charges are related to him "buying" influence with the media.
"This case concerns meetings that Mr Netanyahu conducted with Arnon Mozes, a businessman and the controlling shareholder of the Yedioth Ahronoth media group, which publishes a leading Israeli newspaper." The newspaper is Israel Hayom.
"This case concerns what the attorney general called a "reciprocal arrangement" created between Mr Netanyahu - who also held the post of communications minister from 2014 to 2017 - and Shaul Elovitch, the controlling shareholder in Israel's biggest telecommunications company Bezeq, which owned the news website Walla."

Yes, we certainly need to be very careful with believing everything in the Israeli media, just like with most countries, so fact check everything.