Anniversary of Israeli massacre

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This is this morning’s FaceBook post from my Jewish friend in America. There’s a lot of argument/discussion about what Jewish people think about what’s happening in Israel. This the the thought of one Jewish lady, today.

Anniebach

No different to the claim that Israel had 3 corrupt PM’s and 1
in government now

Netanyahu has been indicted on charges of bribery and fraud, which he has denied. I know little to nothing about the charges so won't comment..

He has his supporters and detractors among Israelis.

Which just proves, again, that nothing is clear-cut.

I wish it was simple Anniebach, ie they voted for Hamas - they voted for Netanyahu so ‘they’ deserve all they get.
It really can’t be diminished in that way imo.
I remember the work that contributed to the Good Friday Agreement. It wasn’t and isn’t perfect. But we no longer have to regularly be evacuated from concerts, shopping centres, department stores in the full knowledge this may be a real bomb like the one down the road from me in Manchester.

No different to the claim that Israel had 3 corrupt PM’s and 1
in government now

Wyllow3

Thank you for that long post, Dickens. I'd also checked the 2006 election results. I don't think the people of Palestine deserved what they got in some way because of it.

I don't think the people of Palestine deserved what they got in some way because of it.

... neither do I. But the accusation - "well, they voted for Hamas, so...." persists.

Clearly, it's more complex than that.

I think it's also of relevance that the Palestinians haven't had the chance to change their mind in 17 years whilst we have had 5 general elections, several changes of govt and goodness knows how many prime ministers.

Thank you for that long post, Dickens. I'd also checked the 2006 election results. I don't think the people of Palestine deserved what they got in some way because of it.

Dickens I looked for info of the 2007 election

Wyllow3

The article as a whole offers different POV on how hostage release and temporary or full cease fires might be reached -

which are sometimes different to supporting all the choices of the current regime.

Frustration there is no plan for an "endgame". Could these other routes break a deadlock, working with negotiators, and so on.

Again, there is very little in political situations that is absolutely black-and-white.

You could say, with conviction, that Sinwar was never interested in peace and that he, and others like him, wanted nothing less than the complete erasure of Israel and the Jews. Such men - obsessed and without a humanitarian bone in their body - exist.

Anniebach
How strange, they voted for Hamas 17 years ago , a case of Be careful what you wish for you may get it

Anniebach, with all due respect to you, that is an example of what I mentioned earlier - very little in politics is that simple.

According to ABC News (flagship news division of the American television network) in 2006, Hamas won about 44% of the votes across the region - a total that secured a majority of seats.

Due to the election rules (which you can read about in the link below), the nature of the winner-takes-all system allowed Hamas to win a far greater share of seats than votes in the legislature. Vote totals from all districts showed Hamas with only slightly more support than Fatah.

Equally, if not more, important, is the backdrop to the election.

Palestinians were fed up with corruption among Fatah leadership, according to Lovatt and news reports from the time. Ami Ayalon, a former head of Israeli intelligence, told The New York Times in 2006: “When they chose Hamas, it is more because of the corruption and failure of the Palestinian Authority and Fatah than because of religion or terrorism.”

And, the history of the growth of Hamas is as important as anything else in this unholy mess. Because according to former Israeli officials, Hamas was originally seen by the Israeli government as a counterweight to the PLO, and it - the Israeli government at the time - supported Hamas as a way to break the PLO's hold on the region.

There's more, in the link, but I wanted to post the above for those who don't like to click on links.

So although superficially you could say that the Palestinians in voting for Hamas got what they "asked for" - I don't believe it's quite as simple as that. And hardly ever is, with rare exceptions.

LINK I've decided not to post the link address as it is huge - but, if anyone wants to research the information available for themselves, you can type Was Hamas Elected by a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza? in the browser. This will bring up the link - and probably others that might give a different perspective to the one I read - which, in the interests of balance is always a good idea.

Doctors have spoken on Hamas media office of attacks by Israel in Gaza. This was on BBC news .

The article as a whole offers different POV on how hostage release and temporary or full cease fires might be reached -

which are sometimes different to supporting all the choices of the current regime.

Frustration there is no plan for an "endgame". Could these other routes break a deadlock, working with negotiators, and so on.

I’ve regularly seen reports of crowds of Israelis demonstrating and asking for the release of the hostages. My Jewish friend in America posts demands for the release of the hostages on her Facebook page almost every day. She thinks the hostages have been forgotten. Probably the demonstrators in Israel do too. I don’t think there’ll be any peace deals until/unless the hostages are released, dead or alive. That’s my reading of the situation but I could be wrong.

Then of course, there’s Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran to deal with. I’m afraid I don’t have the answers.

How strange, they voted for Hamas 17 years ago , a case of
Be careful what you wish for you may get it

"Huge crowds of protesters gathered across several cities in Israel on Saturday, demanding Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government make the return of the hostages their top priority — something they believe has not been the case so far.

Sinwar was a hardliner with little interest in negotiating with Israel. The US, which mediated the talks in Cairo, has repeatedly accused him of being one of the main blockers of a ceasefire deal. "

Taken from the CNN report posted by Wyllow as some posters have said they don't read links. I think most Gazans would also want the hostages released and a peace deal. it was also reported in Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper.

Who truly believes Hamas wants peace and Netanyahu wants
war, I certainly do not,

"hostages".

This article seems relevant to your post - some Israeli citizens believe its a chance to get the hostage home.

CNN article on events over the weekend

edition.cnn.com/2024/10/19/middleeast/sinwar-death-israel-netanyahu-hostage-deal-intl-latam/index.html

Now that Sinwar has gone you would think the hostages would be released a cease fire agreed and Gaza begins its recovery, no sign of that yet Hamas are determined to sacrifice countess more lives for a cause that can’t be won.

I think all of us deplore the deaths that have happened in Israel and Gaza, and now, to a lesser extent in Lebanon.
What seems to be disputed, if I’m reading the situation correctly, is Israel’s right to defend itself and the right of Hamas to use any means to achieve its ends.
Of course, the introduction of Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran have ramped up the conflict causing more disagreement, it seems.

Anniebach

Didn’t know what gang reported meant, I to find it offensive

It sounds quite sinister 😯

Connotations of criminal activity!

Lixy "Agree that this is a very tricky subject to try to keep any kind of objectivity, and hoping for international compromises real soon."

Isn't it just and if it causes such unpleasantness on a forum like this, imagine trying to mediate between the Israeli government and Hamas? Although we might try to focus on events post 7/10/23 that won't be possible for the International mediators trying to achieve some sort of acceptable peace. The long history of conflict cannot be ignored. I wonder what sort of discussion would have taken place on a forum like this if the internet had existed on July 22nd 1946 when Irgun terrorists bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing more than 90 people, including GCHQ and other intelligence personnel.
I think I need to stress that I mention this to demonstrate that over time political situations change, the terrorists of yesterday become the leaders of today (remember that three former Israeli PMs were wanted for terrorism by Britain including murder|) and it is my belief that you can't bomb ideologies out of existence but you can try to remove some of the causes of terrorism and try to find some way out of this terrible situation for the sake of Israelis and Palestinians and for any of the hostages who are still alive. I can't help thinking that Sinwar's death is a good reason to try again, question is, is it in Netanyahu's interest to have peace?

Iam64

lixy, this is the first time I’ve seen the phrase ‘gang reporting’ and I found it offensive.
Occasionally on this forum there have been unpleasant comments about ‘queen bees’ or ‘cliques’. My impression hasn’t been of that kind of silliness but of discussions on news and politics where posters may comment in support of a post that mirrors their own views.
On this thread, I find myself alienated by simplistic suggestions that ‘it’s’ all the fault of Balfour…/ the Israelis ‘. Etc.

On this thread, I find myself alienated by simplistic suggestions that ‘it’s’ all the fault of Balfour…/ the Israelis ‘. Etc.

If only it were that simple.

In politics it seems that cause-and-effect are frequently simplified, not least by politicians with an agenda, and that leads to polarisation and division which, I believe, is partly why we are in an economic and societal mess.

I'm not going to mention any 'issues' because I don't want to divert the thread, but so long as we are encouraged to see things as either black-or-white, then so long will the problems continue, regardless of what they are.

Fleurpepper
I think you’re under the misapprehension that members take your posts as seriously as you would like us to.

Didn’t know what gang reported meant, I to find it offensive