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Taxing the wealthy, point of discussion.

(296 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sat 12-Oct-24 09:33:06

This is the view of the guardian - I thought it worth a discussion.

Taxing the rich: essential for economic fairness and growth
Powerful vested interests are trying to stop the wealthy from paying their fair share.

Denis Healey is often misquoted as saying he wanted to “squeeze the rich until the pips squeak” in the 1970s. He never actually used that phrase. What Labour’s finance spokesman did predict, however, was that his proposed top tax rate would spark “howls of anguish from the 80,000 people” wealthy enough to pay. With Labour in power again, it seems plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. On Thursday this newspaper reported that Rachel Reeves, Healey’s successor in the Treasury, was looking at taxing the rich more by increasing capital gains tax. That would be a very good idea. Yet “howls of anguish” fill the airwaves and can be found on newspaper front pages. Ms Reeves should ignore them.
For decades the rich have projected ideas that support their interests, notably by reframing political language to valorise “wealth creators”. Post the financial crisis, this has been a harder sell. But plutocrats won’t easily give up their muscle, privileges and wealth. In Britain, the grossly unfair distribution of power fuels the effort to protect 3,000 individuals in private equity from Labour’s plan to make them pay their fair share in tax. It’s absurd to think that successful capitalists require an annual state subsidy of £188,000 just to perform their roles. However, this is probably only the beginning of Labour’s efforts. On paper, Britain’s tax system seems relatively progressive, with a headline rate of 47% for those earning over £3m. In reality, nearly a quarter of this ultra-wealthy group pays less than 12% in taxes.
The true scale of income inequality in the UK has been obscured by the methods the wealthy use to generate income. Current measurements exclude the capital gains from selling or shutting down businesses – one of the primary ways the rich earn money and benefit from lower tax rates. A 2020 study found that the top 1%’s share of total income had stayed steady at 14% since 1997. However, when capital gains were included, that figure rose to 17%, with the bulk of the increase concentrated among the ultra-wealthy.
Ms Reeves should act to make Britain more productive. This week, the Institute for Fiscal Studies highlighted how the current tax system discourages investment, undermines productivity, and ultimately makes the country poorer. To reform capital gains tax the chancellor should look at the work of researchers from the Centre for Analysis of Taxation (CenTax). Their latest paper provides a blueprint for necessary reforms. It proposes aligning capital gains tax rates with income tax rates, introducing allowances to incentivise productive investment, taxing the increase in an asset’s value when it is inherited, and implementing an exit tax (common in major economies) to prevent individuals from dodging British taxes on gains made while residing in the UK. In total the package would raise £14bn.
Capital gains tax has morphed into a driver of inequality. The top 5,000 taxpayers account for over half of the taxable gains, receiving an average of nearly £7m each. In fact, the benefits per capita are four times higher in London compared with poorer UK regions. Creating a low-poverty, low-inequality society requires, as the Beveridge report declared in 1942, much more than “patching”. But powerful vested interests are pushing to make opposition to taxing the rich a key element of UK economic policy. Ms Reeves must remain committed to building a fairer and more productive economy, and taxing the rich is essential to achieving that goal.

keepingquiet Sat 12-Oct-24 09:55:29

Thankyou for this interesting and intelligent post. I can't respond to all the points but I will say I agree.

As a taxpayer all my life working in the public sector I expected to have a more comfortable retirement than the one I finished up with. Yet, I know I am relatively comfortable compared to some.

I have always been taxed at source, so never had a chance to declare and not, I just paid without thinking like the vast majority of working people. I wasn't given a chance to fiddle, feeling my taxes were helping to keep the state in working order which is what effective taxation should be.

My hope is that Reeves turns out to be a great chancellor- my fear is that the establishment (so much more powerful than the non-existent government opposition) will do everything in its power to keep its own vested interests as it has always done.
Avoiding capital gains is part of that vested interest.

I think she should act now and act quickly if she is to achieve any success at redressing the terrible imbalances built into our system of privilege and power. So yes, I totally agree with your final sentence.

Wyllow3 Sat 12-Oct-24 12:03:12

👏👏

winterwhite Sat 12-Oct-24 12:13:17

Yes of course, esp taxing unearned income.

Floradora9 Sat 12-Oct-24 21:48:59

I fear a brain drain if big earners are going to be really clobbered. The is some thought that Scottish high earners are moving south to get away from the higher top rate of tax in Scotland . MY DS says he does not mind paying more if the money goes where it is most needed but I do not trust the SNP to be , as Gorgon Brown often said , " prudent ".

gulligranny Sat 12-Oct-24 21:58:13

"My hope is that Rachel Reeves turns out to be a great chancellor".

Gosh, that's some hope ...

ronib Sat 12-Oct-24 23:04:12

The richest people in the Uk are highly mobile and have the ability to jump ship if financial advantages are removed. Is Spain the country of first choice?

Wyllow3 Sat 12-Oct-24 23:14:58

That is always given as a reason, but presumably others have family and actually like living in the UK.

keepingquiet Sun 13-Oct-24 00:34:58

gulligranny

"My hope is that Rachel Reeves turns out to be a great chancellor".

Gosh, that's some hope ...

It is some job she has to do!

MaizieD Sun 13-Oct-24 09:04:21

keepingquiet

gulligranny

"My hope is that Rachel Reeves turns out to be a great chancellor".

Gosh, that's some hope ...

It is some job she has to do!

Her job would be much easier if she weren't so hidebound by erroneous economic dogma and convinced that 'investors' are going to save our bacon.

Starmer is insisting that there is going to be massive investment announced in the Budget. I suspect it will be a few measly inadequate £billions and we'll still be subject to day to day spending cuts.

ronib Sun 13-Oct-24 09:17:29

If these unknown investors do materialise from nowhere to save the country, what tax advantages if any will be used to secure/bribe investment?

Lisaangel10 Sun 13-Oct-24 09:23:48

ronib

The richest people in the Uk are highly mobile and have the ability to jump ship if financial advantages are removed. Is Spain the country of first choice?

Pretty sure I heard yesterday that 4,500 millionaires have already left the country. Many of these are self made millionaires.

I know Charlie Mullins has gone to his other home in Spain. He was on TV the other day saying he has paid over £22.5 million in taxes over the years and he is not paying any more.

Many of these have provided jobs for hundreds of people and offered training schemes and supported new initiatives.

Freya5 Sun 13-Oct-24 09:24:35

gulligranny

"My hope is that Rachel Reeves turns out to be a great chancellor".

Gosh, that's some hope ...

Well she's not shown it so far. Very inept as are most of them.

keepingquiet Sun 13-Oct-24 09:26:31

MaizieD- The lack of investment has plagued this country since the Tory's failed austerity measures. No one wants to invest in a country on its knees. Then we had Brexit- mass economic suicide dismissed by so many as project fear.

What do people want? Project no hope at all?

Maybe the investment will be slow, maybe it will be non-existent. We certainly have to re-think our relationship with Europe, and indeed the rest of the world. I think the new government have grasped that, instead of the old one just grabbing what they could for themselves once we left the EU, and not investing it in anything but their own pockets.

Reeves may fail terribly and then we will all be going to hell in a handcart, but at least they are going to give it a go.

Sago Sun 13-Oct-24 09:58:18

We have some “super rich” friends, their businesses employ hundreds of people, they also have a foundation to help disadvantaged young people.

To stay in the UK would mean they would not have the money to continue their foundation.

They have just sold their home and are going to manage their businesses from overseas.

Their, fishmonger, wine merchant, butcher, dry cleaner, car valets,etc in the local market town will all feel the pain when they have gone!

Grantanow Sun 13-Oct-24 10:01:49

I noticed Mullins didn't say how much profit he had made out of his business after paying tax.

Oreo Sun 13-Oct-24 10:03:24

MaizieD

keepingquiet

gulligranny

"My hope is that Rachel Reeves turns out to be a great chancellor".

Gosh, that's some hope ...

It is some job she has to do!

Her job would be much easier if she weren't so hidebound by erroneous economic dogma and convinced that 'investors' are going to save our bacon.

Starmer is insisting that there is going to be massive investment announced in the Budget. I suspect it will be a few measly inadequate £billions and we'll still be subject to day to day spending cuts.

I agree, investment in the UK is something to be chased of course but can hardly be relied on.
Raising taxes for almost anything has been ruled out by her in a bid to win the election, which was a mistake in itself and wasn’t even needed, as Labour would have won anyway.

nanna8 Sun 13-Oct-24 10:03:36

Many of the super rich employ a lot of people. False economy to force them overseas to my mind. Politics of envy ?

Oreo Sun 13-Oct-24 10:05:23

There’s already fair taxes and the wealthy pay them, it could go up slightly but not so much that they up sticks and leave surely?

ronib Sun 13-Oct-24 10:05:34

It’s possible to become quite resentful if you do pay large sums in tax and you stop and think about how much tax is not being spent well. Why am I bothering ? is a legitimate issue.

mae13 Sun 13-Oct-24 10:06:52

Didn't Mrs Thatcher try to sell us the Trickle Down Effect? As far as I can make out, allowing the already well-off and Big Business to accrue even more wealth, by whatever means they thought fit, would inspire them with a sense of generosity and thus they would allow some of their riches to "trickle down" to the rest of us.

That went well.

I'm afraid Ms Reeves may be about to repeat that con-trick once more.

Aveline Sun 13-Oct-24 10:09:44

Many businesses are not big. Small businesses are the backbone of the country. People keep them going as they feel responsible for their employees. What happens when owners retire? They hope to sell the business and live on what that raises but now if capital gains tax shoots up that's hitting them hard? Why should anyone large or small invest in UK if it just not worth their while?

GrannyGravy13 Sun 13-Oct-24 10:11:53

Aveline exactly 👏👏👏

Wyllow3 Sun 13-Oct-24 10:13:49

People always trot out this "politics of envy" trope when it's about taxing the very rich. I see no basis for it, it's a necessity trying to raise money from those who can afford it for society as a whole. Those who have made money from a lifetime of others working for them and making a profit can afford to give away a little more (in their terms) for those who did that work.

Wyllow3 Sun 13-Oct-24 10:15:00

Oreo

There’s already fair taxes and the wealthy pay them, it could go up slightly but not so much that they up sticks and leave surely?

Thats what I see Reeves as trying to do, get that balance.