The US Election.

Looking at our own relationship with the USA - that 'special' friendship, I wonder how it will develop and how future trade deals will pan out.

Bearing in mind this statement from Trump after talking to Theresa May during his visit in 2018.

"I would have done [Brexit] much differently. I actually told Theresa May how to do it but she didn't agree, she didn't listen to me. She wanted to go a different route. I would actually say that she probably went the opposite way. And that is fine."

Does anyone think that with "America First" and Trump's apparent belief in his own omnipotence that the average citizen in the UK is going to benefit from a future trade deal(s) - apart from some possible cheap (in the truest sense of the word) imports?

Now we've left the EU, we cannot afford politically or economically to alienate the US. Mr Chalk (Starmer) and Mr Cheese (Trump) are not going to have the cosy relationship that would've prevailed under Boris Johnson.

Although I still believe Starmer is well-intentioned, I also think he's following down the path of Tory economics. He's not a rebel, he's a bit of a diplomat - as can be witnessed in his tying himself up in knots when attempting to appease both women and transwomen, at the same time. Our NHS has some lucrative pickings... I just wonder how much of a match Starmer is to Trump who values the $ above everything else - so much so that he has said he would encourage Russia to ‘do whatever the hell they want’ to any NATO country that doesn’t pay enough.

We may no longer be in the EU but we are still part of Europe and NATO.

Apparently, Putin is not planning to congratulate Trump on his victory any time soon. But who knows what will happen if Trump - as he said he would - ends the war with Ukraine in a day.

These are just musings between my OH and me over a late breakfast.

Galaxy

I worry for democracy.
Er this was democracy.

Hitler was democratically elected.

NotSpaghetti

Mamie this is exactly what the presenter of The rest is History said overnight.
He was talking with Scaramouche, Stuart and Campbell on the overnight "America Decides" livestream of The Rest is Politics.
They agreed we aren't sufficiently close to Hitler to see it.

I don't usually listen to The Rest is History but he was very interesting so I may in future.

In good company then!
It is so sad to see, especially as the generation who fought against it die off. You can see the way fake news, misinformation, othering and hate speech are all gaining traction.

Mamie this is exactly what the presenter of The rest is History said overnight.
He was talking with Scaramouche, Stuart and Campbell on the overnight "America Decides" livestream of The Rest is Politics.
They agreed we aren't sufficiently close to Hitler to see it.

I don't usually listen to The Rest is History but he was very interesting so I may in future.

Is neutering an option?

Trump doesn’t need to do gracious. For some unfathomable reason he is well beyond having to conform to normal societal behaviour. He is the top dog? Keep whimpering…. But it won’t help.

Agree with you 100% Dickens.
I would add, I'm pretty sure that Mr Trump would not have been gracious in defeat, either. He doesn't really do gracious.

As the real experiences of the dangers of populism are lost from living memory, they are more likely to recur.

Mamie - you are so, so right.

Once the euphoria has worn off - Trump will not be gracious in victory, and a world dominated by eruptive, egotistical leaders will not be the safe place that JudyBloom believes it's going to be.

I am with you Wyllow3. A very worrying future.

Scary day for the whole world.

Ukraine really worries me.
And access to healthcare in America generally, as well as Womens' health.
Trump continuing to politicise the judiciary until its ruled by pro Trump judges, and more of project 25.

I feel it was "the border" and the money in people's pocket that "did it" for Trump.
It is Brexit all over again in my opinion.

The fact that America is actually doing well has not filtered down because the poorest feel the rise in costs of basic foodstuffs and gas etc first.

He will be splitting families up now to remove undocumented migrants no doubt - so people will see a rise in removals.

Ukraine really worries me.
And access to healthcare in America

But it's not fair to blame all the American people. Lots just believe what they want of him and discount the rest as bluster....

Keeping fingers crossed here.
Not with much hope.

NotSpaghetti

It is easy to run a campaign of hate, division and vitriol it seems.

And lies. It is a bad day for democracy, that you can win by stirring hatred, an almost entirely negative campaign.

NotSpaghetti

It is easy to run a campaign of hate, division and vitriol it seems.

No I don’t think it is, it needs promises of sweetness and light to voters. Promises of a better future and as Clinton once said
It’s the economy stupid!’
It didn’t help that the Democrats ran a woman candidate who spent half her time laughing and grinning.It needed a serious person at the very least who could get the message of democrat
Policies through to voters.

It is easy to run a campaign of hate, division and vitriol it seems.

“The wealthy grow wealthier because that is exactly what the economic dogma driving the UK, the US and other 1st world countries is designed to do.”

I’m trying to think of a country where that does not happen, it certainly does in China and India where the gap between rich and poor is massively higher.

The third world countries I have visited the relatively well off urban populations have very little regard for the rural poor. As for urban poor, they will employ them as maids or guards in return for food and shelter, but it doesn’t go much further than that.

Terribull
Excellent clear thinking comments 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

They've had such a poor choice of candidates, Trump for all he stands for, as a woman, I'd never have voted for him, but Kamala, with her weird speeches and maniacal bursts of inappropriate laughter, she wouldn't have inspired me either, and personally I care not a jot about celebrity endorsements, they're just people. People who may well have talents. I am wondering as far as the wider population are concerned maybe their contributions could be counter productive, why would anyone care how Taylor Swift is going to vote outside her teeny bopper fan base. Do they take people for fools so easily swayed by a "personality" incredibly rich people, not facing the day to day problems most of the electorate have to deal with.

So many liberals, often comfortably off themselves, simply can't hide their derision for either the poor and disenfranchised who have the temerity to have a different point of view and there is an expectation somehow that if you are poor and working class, or from an ethnic minority background that your vote belongs to the left. Otherwise, those who veer from that stance could be described in the words of Biden as "garbage" who know how that comment inspired undecideds to just swing it for Trump, what a liability that man is. Before that we had Hillary Clinton's "Basket of Deplorables" I'd say just read Demon Copperfield to know how that plays out in the poorest of the poor in the US's Appalachians, those living on subsistence levels, beleaguered by an opiate epidemic through the complicity of big pharma. They know just how they are viewed by their loftier and well heeled compatriots. There is also a complacency about the black and Latino votes what are they some homogeneous mass that all think in the same way? are they expected to have group thoughts?. Closer to home we had Labout MP, Dawn Butler only recently describe Kemi Badenoch as a white supremacist in a black face could she be any more insulting, and has she been ticked off for that?, well not to my knowledge.

Ultimately, as Clinton was prone to say "It's the economy" and that fared better under Trump. I had no idea how bad the cost of living was over there until we recently met up with step grandchild who lives and works in the States, one example a punnet of grapes, I'd pay £1.80 in Sainsbury's she tells us costs something in the region of $18 and not from Wholefoods I might add. Ok so you don't need to buy grapes but just as a benchmark of how prices have risen since we last went, going back maybe ten years or so. One of our sons goes over there about twice a year and he says the same, the cost of living has risen exponentially. Getting by will be the driving force for great swathes of the US, in how they have voted, not foreign wars or green issues, but how they're going to put food on the table

Whitewavemark2

I have been listening and reading quite a bit this morning, and I think that the thing that I found most convincing was when someone was commenting on what history will make about this period.

The argument was that Trump, Brexit, and the movement to the right and authoritarianism throughout the world is a result of the world financial shock of 2008, which resulted in so much hardship for ordinary people and the failure for governments to address this.

The insane leverage by the banks and subsequent crash, meant something like 1 in 50 families losing their home in the USA, many of which have struggled to recover from.

In the U.K. austerity, by cutting public services to the bone, middle class was no longer a by-word for life time employment, which meant that people felt far less secure and the trust in politicians gone.

Meanwhile the very wealthy grew even wealthier, and with an apparent ability to influence governments throughout the world meant democracy was no longer the force we lived under in our youth.

I have been banging on and on and on about this for such a long time.

While we remain captive to neoclassical/neoliberal economic dogma nothing is going to change.

We have 4million people in the UK on or below the poverty line. We have people struggling with basic living costs. We voted Labour because we thought they might do something about this but many are desperately disappointed when they can see Labour taking exactly the same economic path as has been trodden since the '70s.

The wealthy grow wealthier because that is exactly what the economic dogma driving the UK, the US and other 1st world countries is designed to do.

The force we had in our youth wasn't 'democracy'. It was a different economic system that was improving the quality of life for more of our citizens and narrowing the inequality gap. It wasn't perfect by any means but it was better than what we have now.

Oreo

I said from the start that DT would win, all the fault of Biden who should have graciously withdrawn so much earlier so that the Democrats had time to choose a suitable candidate.He didn’t and they had to panic into choosing KH.

The campaign demonizing Trump, calling him a Facist probably cost the democrats the election, it was all too personal. The hope that Harris appealed to women voters didnt play out, Hilliary Clinton didnt either, that must have been disappointing for her.

Harry and Meghan on a plane to Portugal already.

Mamie

Whitewavemark2

I have been listening and reading quite a bit this morning, and I think that the thing that I found most convincing was when someone was commenting on what history will make about this period.

The argument was that Trump, Brexit, and the movement to the right and authoritarianism throughout the world is a result of the world financial shock of 2008, which resulted in so much hardship for ordinary people and the failure for governments to address this.

The insane leverage by the banks and subsequent crash, meant something like 1 in 50 families losing their home in the USA, many of which have struggled to recover from.

In the U.K. austerity, by cutting public services to the bone, middle class was no longer a by-word for life time employment, which meant that people felt far less secure and the trust in politicians gone.

Meanwhile the very wealthy grew even wealthier, and with an apparent ability to influence governments throughout the world meant democracy was no longer the force we lived under in our youth.

As the real experiences of the dangers of populism are lost from living memory, they are more likely to recur.

Yes I think that is correct, but someone did argue that populism has always been part of democracy throughout its history, it is when it gets out of control that it is so bad.

David49

“Democracy in the US (as in other so-called democracies) is questionable.”

That really is a ridiculous statement,

It sure is.
Not getting the result you want is still democracy.

“Democracy in the US (as in other so-called democracies) is questionable.”

That really is a ridiculous statement,

I said from the start that DT would win, all the fault of Biden who should have graciously withdrawn so much earlier so that the Democrats had time to choose a suitable candidate.He didn’t and they had to panic into choosing KH.