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Governments First Budget

(565 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Wed 30-Oct-24 07:55:04

We won’t know too much until we can read tomorrows analysis , but we do know of this government’s intended direction of travel, and whether it meets with our expectations as voters and what we all voted for, which of course changes with each individual.

My vote and expectation was for

First and foremost to save our NHS and crumbling public services.

Second was to address the state of our environment, the polluted seas and rivers, and the lack of diversity.

Next -to address the fact that economic growth has been more or less stagnant since 2010. We need a Keynesian type budget for growth, that is imaginative and forward thinking to produce the revenue to invest in out country.

Personally I have never thought it possible to have this type of successful economy where citizens can be confident of a cradle to grave welfare state, where education is first class, health is free at the point of use and available within a very reasonable time limit, where public services are well run and invested in and care for all in need comes as a right, can be obtained by the tax payer on the cheap. This type of economy must be paid for and we will need to see tax at Scandinavian levels in order to achieve this.

Looking at the state the country is in, we knew in July that this would be a mighty task. Mighty tasks need research/planning and massive effort. They always start painfully slowly but momentum will gather as each year passes and we will gradually see the result of the effort put in to save our country from the ravages of 14 long years of economic blows our public services received.

Of course the right wing media - childlike - is insisting on jam today without spending any of their pocket money, but as wise parents we know that all jam does is rot your teeth. Instant gratification is only for the hard of thinking, the more intelligent know that time is the master.

So now looking back at the few short months Labour has been in government, i am pretty supportive of the direction of travel, and the achievements to date - which probably need listing to remind everyone - but not for this thread.

Some stuff has been announced but I think it best until we begin to see how it fits into the overall picture before we begin to comment.

It looks as if this is going to be a massive budget though - so hold onto your hats!

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 10:48:55

Wyllow3

So agree on the private jets!

I am not against per se, and will suck up the extra tax on flight upgrades.

If the farming IHT brings about the demise of small farms in the U.K., no doubt all the grain etc., which will be shipped in more frequently on polluting container ships will be subject to the same pollution tax

I am really struggling to see anything good regarding IHT on farms. It totally goes against the policy of less food miles, eat local produce etc., as there will not be local produce available to purchase.

Maggiemaybe Thu 31-Oct-24 10:49:59

grandstanding gobshites

Love it! grin

Grantanow Thu 31-Oct-24 10:58:55

I think business is protesting about the increased employers' NI but keeping stum that small businesses with 4 or less are exempt from the increase and SMEs have some extra business rates relief.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:07:01

Grantanow

I think business is protesting about the increased employers' NI but keeping stum that small businesses with 4 or less are exempt from the increase and SMEs have some extra business rates relief.

The level it is starting to be paid at is also reducing from £9,100 to £5,000.

As far as our SME is concerned it will mean a shelving of further investment, no new employees unless absolutely necessary and serious consideration to the further training (only if the benefits are considerably more than cost)

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:11:53

Bill Gates and Larry Fink visit Starmer and Reeves days ago.

Gates and Finks are massive buyers of agricultural land…

Mollygo Thu 31-Oct-24 11:19:28

Allira

^Why we all need to buy anyway I just don't understand. If you have rented a house you are happy in, what you really need is security of tenure, swift repairs and a rent that feels "fair"^

I think that older people may feel more secure in a property they own rather than the insecurities of renting. My MIL rented privately all her life but, being widowed at an early age, she spent her life being worried about being 'thrown out' especially when her sons had grown up and left. The rent became another worry after she retired too.

If you have a rented house that you are happy in, that gets repaired, and you continue to be able to afford the rent, then renting is fine.
From experience
When budgets get tight, some councils are very slow to provide even small repairs and unwilling to refund the cost if you get them done yourself. Always, or since at least 1998, councils blame their inability to do repairs and their need to raise rents, on whichever government is in power.

There are also the comments of you don’t need a house that big now there’s only the two, or the one of you. It feels like a threat.

There were a couple of offers to rehouse, but all away from family, friends, and familiar places, quite frightening when you are old.

I wish we could have afforded to buy for them when the option was there.

Jane43 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:20:35

GrannyGravy13

Wyllow3

So agree on the private jets!

I am not against per se, and will suck up the extra tax on flight upgrades.

If the farming IHT brings about the demise of small farms in the U.K., no doubt all the grain etc., which will be shipped in more frequently on polluting container ships will be subject to the same pollution tax

I am really struggling to see anything good regarding IHT on farms. It totally goes against the policy of less food miles, eat local produce etc., as there will not be local produce available to purchase.

It doesn’t apply to small farms does it? That’s what Rachel Reeves said on BBC Breakfast this morning: 70% of farms won’t be affected.

Wyllow3 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:22:56

Same happened in 2021, when BJ made connections with big possible green investors

Telegraph

"Inside Boris Johnson’s bid to woo the world’s green investors
Prime Minister pitches the likes of Bill Gates and Larry Fink on Global Britain's net zero ambitions"

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/10/19/inside-boris-johnsons-bid-woo-worlds-green-investors/

It's now being touted as some evil plot by SM.

Wyllow3 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:23:27

that was for GG13

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:34:51

Jane43

GrannyGravy13

Wyllow3

So agree on the private jets!

I am not against per se, and will suck up the extra tax on flight upgrades.

If the farming IHT brings about the demise of small farms in the U.K., no doubt all the grain etc., which will be shipped in more frequently on polluting container ships will be subject to the same pollution tax

I am really struggling to see anything good regarding IHT on farms. It totally goes against the policy of less food miles, eat local produce etc., as there will not be local produce available to purchase.

It doesn’t apply to small farms does it? That’s what Rachel Reeves said on BBC Breakfast this morning: 70% of farms won’t be affected.

It applies to all farms valued at over £1,000,000

Average price per acre of agricultural land in 2023 was £11,300
any farm over 80 acres would be subject to IHT at those values.

Average U.K. farm acreage is 213…

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 11:36:14

Wyllow3

Same happened in 2021, when BJ made connections with big possible green investors

Telegraph

"Inside Boris Johnson’s bid to woo the world’s green investors
Prime Minister pitches the likes of Bill Gates and Larry Fink on Global Britain's net zero ambitions"

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/10/19/inside-boris-johnsons-bid-woo-worlds-green-investors/

It's now being touted as some evil plot by SM.

I wasn’t in favour of the plan then.

Difference being Labour have opened the barn doors wide and wedged them firmly open.

Casdon Thu 31-Oct-24 11:42:02

I’m not sure the average UK acreage and prices mean much. Acrage is much greater in England and Scotland than in Wales, here it is 119 acres. Land is cheaper too, the average price for arable land is £8,500/acre, with £6,000/acre for pasture and £1,000/acre for hill ground according to the latest quarterly figures. Are many of the large farms in England owned by conglomerates?

Casdon Thu 31-Oct-24 11:44:54

Answer to my own question.
www.fwi.co.uk/business/markets-and-trends/land-markets/who-owns-britains-farmland

Whitewavemark2 Thu 31-Oct-24 12:18:47

OK for those exercised over the IHT on Agricultural land

An explainer from Dan Neidle - tax consultant

Background: if I'm a landlord with a portfolio of properties, or an investor with a portfolio of listed shares, when I die my estate pays 40% inheritance tax (IHT). Until now, APR meant that agricultural estates were completely exempt from IHT.

The Budget caps the exemption at £1m. Beyond that, IHT applies to agricultural property at half the usual rate - so 20%.

But the £1m figure is misleading, because IHT won't usually apply to farms worth £1m...
... Small farms usually include the farmhouse. So, for a married couple, the estate as a whole will benefit from £650k total nil rate band plus £350 residence nil rate band plus £1m agricultural property relief.

That's £2m exemption in total, covering most small farms.

That's why, if we look at the stats, 87% of inherited agricultural property used less than £1m of APR and so will remain completely exempt.

Almost half the £1bn cost of APR went to 63 estates of median value £8m. Doesn't seem great value for money for the taxpayer.

For farms just over the threshold, the IHT is easily managed.

Farmers who are youngish (say <70) can buy life insurance to cover the IHT. Won't cost much given the small level of cover required (i.e. for a £2m farm it's £200k IHT max).

As they get older, and life insurance starts getting expensive, they can give the farm to their kids. Live seven more years; no IHT. No need for the insurance anymore.

(The dirty truth about IHT planning is that anyone youngish, in good health, who's worried about IHT should just buy lift insurance. By far the easiest/cheapest/most ethical way to avoid the impact of IHT, without avoiding IHT
Once we get into much larger agricultural businesses, worth many £m, then insurance becomes expensive, but at that point we're looking at sophisticated businesses and it's reasonable to expect people to finance the tax (which can be paid over 10 years).

I'm seen some hysterical takes on this: "£20k could make the difference between a £2m farm being profitable or loss making". [£20k over ten years = IHT on £2m]

Nope. If it's making less than £20k profit/year, it ain't worth £
And we've been here before. The old capital transfer tax (predecessor to IHT) had no agricultural exemption at all. In 1975 a 30% relief was introduced. The complete exemption we have now was only created in 1992.

The sky did not fall in.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 31-Oct-24 12:50:07

Oh just a bit of useless information

Anyone wonder why Clarkson is so annoyed?

He bought the farm specifically to avoid IHT

Oh dear!

David49 Thu 31-Oct-24 12:51:57

In the 1970s land was valued according to its productive capacity so much lower than today, now it’s the IHT concession that has escalated its value.

Rosie51 Thu 31-Oct-24 13:38:55

Whitewavemark2 From your quote
Farmers who are youngish (say <70) can buy life insurance to cover the IHT. Won't cost much given the small level of cover required (i.e. for a £2m farm it's £200k IHT max). Under 70 is youngish? Really? What will the premiums be for a now 55 year old who wants to take out insurance to pay out £200,000?

Freya5 Thu 31-Oct-24 13:45:55

GrannyGravy13

Bill Gates and Larry Fink visit Starmer and Reeves days ago.

Gates and Finks are massive buyers of agricultural land…

Yay that's all we need, solar farms and no food. Numpties the lot of them. 😡

fancythat Thu 31-Oct-24 13:50:23

In the 1970's, many farms were relatively a lot more profitable than they are now.

fancythat Thu 31-Oct-24 13:51:05

Freya5

GrannyGravy13

Bill Gates and Larry Fink visit Starmer and Reeves days ago.

Gates and Finks are massive buyers of agricultural land…

Yay that's all we need, solar farms and no food. Numpties the lot of them. 😡

Are they the poeple who are pushing for us all to eat insects? Well presumably not themselves of course.

fancythat Thu 31-Oct-24 13:54:00

In reality, what may happen for many, is like Jeremy said, farmers will wait 5 years[assuming they are able to] for a supposed different government.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 13:56:29

Whitewavemark2

Oh just a bit of useless information

Anyone wonder why Clarkson is so annoyed?

He bought the farm specifically to avoid IHT

Oh dear!

Source please Whitewavemark2

Jeremy purchased what is now known as Diddly Squat Farm in 2008 for £4.5 million.

TerriBull Thu 31-Oct-24 13:59:24

I dread to think of a world where great swathes of agricultural land are in the hands of the likes of Bill Gates.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 31-Oct-24 14:00:04

“Detailing his reasons for buying the farm, Clarkson wrote: 'Land is a better investment than any bank can offer. The Government doesn't get any of my money when I die. And the price of the food that I grow can only go up. 'But there is another, much more important reason: I can now have a quad bike.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 31-Oct-24 14:01:17

Whitewavemark2

“Detailing his reasons for buying the farm, Clarkson wrote: 'Land is a better investment than any bank can offer. The Government doesn't get any of my money when I die. And the price of the food that I grow can only go up. 'But there is another, much more important reason: I can now have a quad bike.

Thank you 👍