Amsterdam attacks

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

The French pro Palestinians will do their best to disrupt things and maybe use violence so glad the French police are on top of it.

escaped

^I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism^. That is quite some assumption! I deplore the disgusting chants of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.

As do I.
But you’re right in that Dutch pro Palestinians were planning a Jew hunt before the Tel Aviv team even arrived.
It was all pre planned and the physical injuries to Jewish fans wasn’t merely a retaliation as growstuff likes to think but a case of violent thuggery by the Dutch/ Palestinians.
If it was a case of just some retaliation then it would have been chanting and a protest crowd.It was much more than that.

I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism. That is quite some assumption! I deplore the disgusting chants of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.

growstuff

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism. You keep trying to distract from the issue.

Looking forward to seeing how such events can be prevented or better contained in the future is certainly not distracting from the issue.
That is why France is deploying 4,000 police, plus 1,500 security personnel tomorrow at the match. France is the country in Europe with the highest number of Jewish citizens.

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism. You keep trying to distract from the issue.

escaped

^It's ignoring the fact (and itisa fact) that Israeli football fans provoked the violence^.
And it's ignoring the fact that Dutch pro Palestinian supporters were provocative too. We know that messages were being sent earlier in the week about going on a "Jodenjacht" - a Jewhunt. I believe the police have yet to put out their full report into the background, but tensions had already been running high in the days prior to the Maccabi fans' arrival in Amsterdam.

I disagree. The media generally reported the violence by the pro-Palestinians and framed it as an unprovoked attack on innocent Israeli fans - that's what I've been on about! If the complete timeline had been reported from the start, I wouldn't be objecting. Apparently, Sky had a factual account, which was taken down and replaced with a version which omitted the original Israeli fan provocation. Netanyahu compared it with Kristallnacht and other media picked up on that - it's nonsense. The Jews who were attacked during Kristallnacht had done nothing, but this time a group of them had done something and it this group the retaliatory violence targeted. Jewish property wasn't damaged, but Arab-owned property was.

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

It's ignoring the fact (and itisa fact) that Israeli football fans provoked the violence.
And it's ignoring the fact that Dutch pro Palestinian supporters were provocative too. We know that messages were being sent earlier in the week about going on a "Jodenjacht" - a Jewhunt. I believe the police have yet to put out their full report into the background, but tensions had already been running high in the days prior to the Maccabi fans' arrival in Amsterdam.

madalene

I’m sorry if you feel insulted Maizie because I didn’t intend to offend you. Posters on News and Politics threads tend to be well informed, but we cannot make the mistake of thinking that everyone is knowledgeable. I have actually seen on live news reports, people being asked if they know about the Holocaust, and they don’t know anything about it, or claim to not know. I have also seen here, on GN, the assertion that the Holocaust was a long time ago and the inference being, it is no longer relevant. Nonetheless, it is the backdrop for much of what has happened in Israel ever since.

No one could watch the suffering of the innocent people in Gaza and not be shocked and upset. The suffering of the children is particularly distressing, and all parties need to move towards some sort of solution. This cannot go on indefinitely. Hamas and the Israeli government need to negotiate, and Iran and Hezbollah need to stop interfering.

I haven't seen anybody claiming that the Holocaust is no longer relevant. I'd be amazed if any European hasn't heard of it. It's taught in schools as part of the National Curriculum and there are still people alive who remember it. However, it is apparently true that people outside Europe, who haven't studied European history, see it as no different from what happened in Cambodia, Rwanda and elsewhere. There are also, of course, contrarians who still deny it happened, but there aren't that many of them.

I wonder what the Israeli Maccabi Tel Aviv fans actually learnt in history.

I don't disagree with remembering the Holocaust and, just as important, the collective mindset which led to it.

However, this is a distraction from what happened in Amsterdam. It's ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that Israeli football fans provoked the violence. In this case (and I stress - in this case) the Israelis were not innocent victims of something resembling 'Kristallnacht'.

Nobody needs racist football thugs to remind them of historical antisemitism. What they've done is prove that Jews aren't always innocent victims.

Lily Ebert Holocaust Survivor who died last month said it was
so important that the Holocaust is spoken of, if it isn’t it will
be forgotten

I’m sorry if you feel insulted Maizie because I didn’t intend to offend you. Posters on News and Politics threads tend to be well informed, but we cannot make the mistake of thinking that everyone is knowledgeable. I have actually seen on live news reports, people being asked if they know about the Holocaust, and they don’t know anything about it, or claim to not know. I have also seen here, on GN, the assertion that the Holocaust was a long time ago and the inference being, it is no longer relevant. Nonetheless, it is the backdrop for much of what has happened in Israel ever since.

No one could watch the suffering of the innocent people in Gaza and not be shocked and upset. The suffering of the children is particularly distressing, and all parties need to move towards some sort of solution. This cannot go on indefinitely. Hamas and the Israeli government need to negotiate, and Iran and Hezbollah need to stop interfering.

I would see definition 1) and 3) as needing a lower case h at the front of the noun. I would reserve Holocaust with a capital H for definition 2). I think the word itself, small h, actually comes from the Bible.
However, in Hebrew, Jewish people have a different word for it. "Shoah" denotes a disaster or catastrophe.

MaizieD do you really think the general public consider number 1 in your definition list? If you hear the term 'holocaust denier' can you honestly say you don't think of someone who denies the extermination of 6 million Jews during WW2? Like it or not, for most of us holocaust is a word that will always specifically mean the historical extermination of European Jews.

Holocaust

noun

1) Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.

2) The genocide of European Jews and other groups by the Nazis during World War II.

3) A massive slaughter.

It is imo impossible to defend the extreme bombing campaign, with so many killed, terrified, maimed and traumatised.
I can’t call it a Holocaust. Dreadful as the current Israeli government is, it isn’t seeking to wipe out an entire race, sling with others it sees as less than human, gypsies, people wit learning difficulties, homosexual men etc. It isn’t invading countries with a view to world dominationl

The uTube link was well informed !

Speaking of the Holocaust is no more,victim culture' than is speaking of slavery or the horrors of Partition in India, or any other vile thing that has happened between races in the world.

It was a terrible act and to imply that people of our generation are ill informed or ignorant of it is insulting. It figured hugely in Europe in the past WW2 era, with the Nuremburg trials and the establishment of Israel.

But when the government of Israel is doing essentially the same thing to the Palestinians, genocide, 80+ years later it is very hard to reconcile what they are doing now with what happened to them.

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

madalene

Anniebach

Seems Pogroms and The Holocaust of no concern

The Holocaust is often dismissed as something that happened a long time ago, even sometimes on GN Annie.
I believe it’s something that people should learn about to inform their opinions.

It's not dismissed by me! I am well aware of the holocaust and centuries of antisemitism, usually perpetuated by Christians. However, I am capable of being objective.

I'm still waiting for some justification of Maccabi Tel Aviv's provocative and racist chants. This was in Holland, for goodness' sake.

I don't understand how people are turning a blind eye to the timeline of what actually happened in Amsterdam and not understanding that it's not surprising that the current right wing Dutch government would want to frame it as anti-Muslim.

Good grief , speaking of the Holocaust is victim culture

Quote madalene Wed 13-Nov-24 13:05:15
Anniebach
Seems Pogroms and The Holocaust of no concern
The Holocaust is often dismissed as something that happened a long time ago, even sometimes on GN Annie.
I believe it’s something that people should learn about to inform their opinions.

Yes Madalene seems we have Faulty Towers to contend with

I don’t think anyone dismisses it Madalene however some of us think the victim culture that has allowed Israel to escape the UN resolutions has to end.Yes millions died…almost a hundred years ago the Israel problem isn,t connected. That is down to Balfour and his mishandling of the handover of the “ STATE of Israel” without imposing firm and legal rules for the incomers and safety for the people who had lived there for centuries .
I don’t for a minute imagine anyone on here would be happy for an incoming population to throw you off your land or kill your family and burn your home.Thats what happened to my friend and many many like him Israel is to blame WE are complicit because we allow them to get away with it Now they commit genocide ,murder children and innocent civilians and you still think Israel has a right to do that?

Can we not want to live in a situation where we never forget Pogroms and The Holocaust but neither can we tolerate " "Let the IDF win to f* the Arabs" and "There are no schools in Gaza - there are no children"?