Amsterdam attacks

That’s truly shocking, escaped.
Anti semitism amongst Muslim communities seems to be an increasing problem and one widely demonstrated.

If you delve into it, there have been high levels of Antisemitism apparent in Holland recently.
When I was in Amsterdam earlier this year, we couldn't visit the new National Holocaust Museum because it wasn't opened until the March. Unlike the Resistance Museum, this one is dedicated solely to the Jews of Holland. It houses Jewish artefacts as part of the story and focuses on the persuction and murder of Jews in the Netherlands.
Anyway, more than 200 Dutch mosques audaciously petitioned King Willem-Alexander not to attend the opening. What business was it of theirs? What little respect does that show? At the opening, there were 100s of Pro-Palestinian protesters with banners and they pelted the dignitaries with raw eggs. That's total provocation on the streets of the city from one side only.

Reading the full reports, there was deliberate provocation that resulted in retaliation.

I’m personally sickened to the core by the genocide in Gaza and struggling not to give way to my own anti-Zionist feelings.

I followed up the question raised in terms of "everyday"

Yes, Anti Semitism has peaked in Denmark since last year

www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/denmark-records-highest-number-of-antisemitic-incidents-since-wwii-part-of-a-grim-european-trend

There are also high levels of Islamophobia

www.trtworld.com/europe/study-dutch-muslims-spat-on-beaten-discriminated-in-islamophobic-crimes-54957

Iam64

Football hooligan, however racist, can’t be used to minimise anti semitism.

Growstuff, yiu asked whether ‘ordinary’ Jewish people had been attacked in Amsterdam (my words, nit quoting yours). I haven’t checked news reports but see no reason why Amsterdam should be different than my area, North Manchester, where synagogues, cemeteries, schools have all seen huge increases in anti semitic attacks. A friend told me recently that many in the Jewish community have reverted to having a Go bag by the door in case living here becomes too dangerous. Some are considering moving to Israel, their homeland - despite not supporting its government.

I accept that. My question was related to the events of a couple of days ago. Were the usual Jewish inhabitants of Amsterdam physically attacked, pushed in canals, etc? Were there more threats than normal (ie to warrant the accusations that this was a pogrom)? Were any of your friends actually attacked?

I'm not minimising antisemitism. Why don't the Israeli authorities act against these thugs? In the past they have actually attacked non-Jewish Israeli citizens. It genuinely seems to me that their racism is being minimised. It should work both ways.

Incidentally, at least some of the attacks on cemeteries in Manchester have been carried by home-grown right wing thugs. We know that because there have been arrests.

The CIDI is an independent foundation registered at the Dutch Chamber of Commerce. Its mission is to ensure a peaceful existence for Jewish people. Apparently it recorded 379 attacks on Jewish people in Amsterdam in 2023.
This constitutes a 245% increase over 2022.
So like in Iam64's description of North Manchester, Jews in Amsterdam suffer antisemitic attacks 365 days a year.

Agree Iam at the beginnings of the year Maureen Lipman spoke of antisemitism, even the graveyard where she lived was guarded, children not wearing their school blazers to travel to
school, what must it be like now .

What can a parent say to a child who asks why ? Because you are a Jew !

Football hooligan, however racist, can’t be used to minimise anti semitism.

Growstuff, yiu asked whether ‘ordinary’ Jewish people had been attacked in Amsterdam (my words, nit quoting yours). I haven’t checked news reports but see no reason why Amsterdam should be different than my area, North Manchester, where synagogues, cemeteries, schools have all seen huge increases in anti semitic attacks. A friend told me recently that many in the Jewish community have reverted to having a Go bag by the door in case living here becomes too dangerous. Some are considering moving to Israel, their homeland - despite not supporting its government.

Agreeing with Growstuff as to the whole narrative of events.

I'm reposting this article as it gives a timeline and exactly what happened over the 3 days. It gives details of both attacks on the football fans and the provocation initiated by them, also social media used by both parties.

There were both Anti Semitism and Anti Islam elements in this.

www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/11/what-happened-amsterdam-israeli-football-fans

Wyllow3

Actually I think "blame" probably lies in several different directions - perhaps what matters most is how to prevent or contain future occurrences and this matters a great deal as it's possible it could happen again.
There has been rise in both Anti-semitism and Islamophobia.

An attempt has been made.

The Europa League match between Turkish club Besiktas and Maccabi Tel-Aviv from Israel on Nov. 28 will be played in a neutral territory in Hungary.

The match was originally a home game for Istanbul-based Besiktas, but the Turkish government had earlier decided not to host it in Turkey. It will now be played at Nagyerdei Stadium in Debrecen, Hungary.

The match will be held behind closed doors due to a decision by the local Hungarian authorities.

Maccabi fans aren't being given an outlet and I suspect this won't be the last time they'll be shown they're not welcome.

escaped

It's interesting to note that both AFV Ajax and UEFA put out statements referring only to events AFTER the match.
^AFTER a sporting football match with a good atmosphere in our stadium – for which we thank all parties involved for the good cooperation – we were horrified to learn what happened in the centre of Amsterdam last night. We strongly condemn this violence."
So are they purposely ignoring the events on the streets and on the metro prior to the match? Do they see the build up to the attacks it as unimportant, or are they just fed up with two groups of thugs with their own political agenda?

I'm not a mind reader, so I don't know anything about their motivation. Maybe they hadn't been given the whole picture.

Oreo

Anniebach

No one has said Islamophobia is ever justified. A thread on
Islamophobia perhaps?

Nobody has said it, including me!
Babs3 you got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely from both of my comments and I can’t understand why as there was nothing said about ordinary people who happen to be Muslim in them.It was about extremist Islamist groups being linked to a rise in Islamaphobia in various countries.
Since its a self moderating site then obvs one or more posters did complain.
Water under the bridge.
It’s on record growstuff since truth is key, that people in Amsterdam did coordinate attacks and arrange it by SM using taxi drivers and men on scooters to ‘corral’ small groups of Israeli fans and beat them up.
I acknowledge that the fans shouldn’t have pulled down any flags but guess it was like a red rag to a bull.

It's also on record Oreo that the Maccabi fans were shouting anti-Arab chants as soon as they arrived in Amsterdam Airport. They pulled down a flag, attacked a Moroccan taxi driver and tooled themselves up before any attacks on them were reported. Have there been any reports of attacks on ordinary Jewish inhabitants of Amsterdam? Maybe there were and I've missed them, but without those, it wasn't a pogrom, as Netanyahu claimed.

Truth is indeed the key. It wasn't one-sided, which is how the majority of the UK media and many on GN have presented it.

Anniebach

No one has said Islamophobia is ever justified. A thread on
Islamophobia perhaps?

Nobody has said it, including me!
Babs3 you got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely from both of my comments and I can’t understand why as there was nothing said about ordinary people who happen to be Muslim in them.It was about extremist Islamist groups being linked to a rise in Islamaphobia in various countries.
Since its a self moderating site then obvs one or more posters did complain.
Water under the bridge.
It’s on record growstuff since truth is key, that people in Amsterdam did coordinate attacks and arrange it by SM using taxi drivers and men on scooters to ‘corral’ small groups of Israeli fans and beat them up.
I acknowledge that the fans shouldn’t have pulled down any flags but guess it was like a red rag to a bull.

I just think they felt the need to say they had no part in it (am not saying they did) and saying "look elsewhere?".

AFC AJAX

It's interesting to note that both AFV Ajax and UEFA put out statements referring only to events AFTER the match.
^AFTER a sporting football match with a good atmosphere in our stadium – for which we thank all parties involved for the good cooperation – we were horrified to learn what happened in the centre of Amsterdam last night. We strongly condemn this violence."
So are they purposely ignoring the events on the streets and on the metro prior to the match? Do they see the build up to the attacks it as unimportant, or are they just fed up with two groups of thugs with their own political agenda?

silverlining48

Would just like to say I have not reported Oreo or anyone else’s post.

Well someone did. Though why it was deleted I don't know.

I'd just like to say that my post and, I believe another one, were deleted because they quoted a deleted post.

Post references deleted post

Can Islamophobia be discussed on a separate thread please ?

Actually I think "blame" probably lies in several different directions - perhaps what matters most is how to prevent or contain future occurrences and this matters a great deal as it's possible it could happen again.
There has been rise in both Anti-semitism and Islamophobia.

I get the impression that the Dutch police are dragging their heels a bit in releasing their report, nearly a week on. Normally one side is quickly blamed for the attacks and it is made clear what sparked off the events. In Amsterdam, the details all seem very mixed up and unclear, according to whose version we read

The timelines are set out clearly in the Guardian article I posted above, but interpreting them and checking out Social media and different witness accounts - including btw local Jewish organisations who came out to help get footie supporters to the airport

cannot be done quickly, I doubt blame is simple in this case.

Quote escaped Tue 12-Nov-24 13:41:49
I get the impression that the Dutch police are dragging their heels a bit in releasing their report, nearly a week on. Normally one side is quickly blamed for the attacks and it is made clear what sparked off the events. In Amsterdam, the details all seem very mixed up and unclear, according to whose version we read.

I visited the Museum of WWII Resistance in Amsterdam this year. It showed the life of people in the city during the Holocaust and highlighted acts of heroism towards Jewish people hounded by the Nazis. A young child would be interested in walking round the mock up street scenes. It was factual, but not overly moving. What did strike me, however, and was palpable, was the feeling that Dutch people STILL feel guilty because of the country's contribution to Jewish suffering in WW2. There's no getting away from the fact that they think they let Jewish people down.
Maybe this shame, and regret, kind of accounts for the rush in both Holland and abroad to pin the blame last week on antisemitism?

Thank you escaped much to think about

OK, sorry, growstuff maybe I associated your comment with someone else's who said,
So if you are still wondering what Islamophobia is perhaps just ask someone first before showing your ignorance, because you added your own family member post directly to it as clarification.

You've got me wondering now whether your son in law is a ManU or a ManCity supporter? Though nothing to do with this thread, obviously!

I get the impression that the Dutch police are dragging their heels a bit in releasing their report, nearly a week on. Normally one side is quickly blamed for the attacks and it is made clear what sparked off the events. In Amsterdam, the details all seem very mixed up and unclear, according to whose version we read.

I visited the Museum of WWII Resistance in Amsterdam this year. It showed the life of people in the city during the Holocaust and highlighted acts of heroism towards Jewish people hounded by the Nazis. A young child would be interested in walking round the mock up street scenes. It was factual, but not overly moving. What did strike me, however, and was palpable, was the feeling that Dutch people STILL feel guilty because of the country's contribution to Jewish suffering in WW2. There's no getting away from the fact that they think they let Jewish people down.
Maybe this shame, and regret, kind of accounts for the rush in both Holland and abroad to pin the blame last week on antisemitism?

Anniebach

No one has said Islamophobia is ever justified. A thread on
Islamophobia perhaps?

Well comments were deleted and imho GNHQ don’t delete comments unless they breach guidelines, so if not Islamophobic then seeking to be an apologist for this.
Just ask yourself Annie if a commenter declared ‘antisemitism, whatever that is’, how would you feel?
Am sure you don’t want antisemitism diluted or made out to be a storm in a teacup.

There is some definite evidence of some SM advance planning for the Wednesday evening attacks, but the police have not yet released a report on this because I presume they are looking into it properly before reporting including the time scales.

It will be something the authorities will want to be aware of, and its complicated because Maccabi fans were also circulating rumours

I've read such different reports on this from different outlets - with different political agendas - warnings sent to Amsterdam from Israel included - alleging different things - atm waiting for proper confirmation.

Today's "Explainer" report in the Guardian alludes to both whilst setting out the best timeline of events in detail including the nature of the attacks I've read so far and the clear response of the authorities

www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/11/what-happened-amsterdam-israeli-football-fans

(I'd be happy to use another source but this is accessible)