Amsterdam attacks

Well as regards this thread posters have mainly addressed the situation in Amsterdam. In fact doing so on request to "Stay on point", rather than discuss the overall situation. However since its been raised now

My impression is that there have been just a few posts of the sort you refer to - outright condemnation of "Israel" as such etc

However, leaving those aside, I believe there to be a number of posters who wholeheartedly support Israel's right to defend itself

but do not agree with all of the measures the current regime under Netanyahu has taken, including strong reservations about for example the gradual move into the West Bank and the refusal to let enough aid into Northern Gaza.

This is neither anti-semitic nor anti Israel, since we know that not all Israeli citizens nor international opinions agree wholeheartedly with the current regime.

ferry you are reading correctly, it is deeply distressing reading

If I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly, there appears to be a lot of posters on this site vociferously criticising the level of Israel's response to the heinous crimes carried out on its citizens last October.

Equally, there's as many posters trying to justify that some racist shouting and pulling down a flag justifies the appalling, and pre-planned attacks on Jews in Amsterdam.

How does that work then?

Definitely escaped , Lily Ebert said the same and she was a
Holocaust survivor

It has been reported that Dutch fans were organising a ‘Jew hunt’ on social media before any Israeli fans even arrived. The taunting was well organised using scooters and taxis to trap the Israelis before Dutch fans set about kicking and stamping on them. The mayor of Amsterdam and king of Holland have apologised for the violence towards Israeli fans. It beggars belief that the Israelis organised for taxis and scooters to trap themselves. They appear to have been chanting, so were the Dutch. They burnt a Palestinian flag. Not acceptable but certainly it was being used as a provocation. It has also been reported that Jews in Holland, and more generally in Europe, are wondering where they can go to be safe.

The other thing, I can't remember if it has been mentioned already, is that anyone who even looked Jewish on the streets of Amsterdam that night was forced to show their passports to angry pro Palestinian gangs. That to me is very sinister and upsetting, (WW2 connotations).

Nobody on this thread has thought the chanting was ok but it didn’t warrant the violence meted out.
Indeed this. The organised violence.

If Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were ripping up stuff from the pavements to protect themselves, yet the pro Palestinian supporters came with weapons on scooters, this suggests to me that the latter were far more prepared and organised in advance. Their intent for violence was there.

And the tweets re the Jew.

An odd comment from you growstuff
I think anyone can claim to be a victim if they’re beaten and kicked.
The attacks took place by groups attacking two or three Israeli football fans at a time from what I can make out so it wasn’t a huge crowd of chanting fans at all.
Nobody on this thread has thought the chanting was ok but it didn’t warrant the violence meted out.
The attacks were planned before any chanting or the match took place.
You’re trying very hard growstuff to negate the pro Palestinian violence but it won’t wash.

Who has stooped to the lowest level and claim to be a victim ?

Oreo

And of course the Arab teams do similar I expect.
The Pro Palestinians who planned attacks in Amsterdam possibly weren’t even football fans or it was a mix of some who were and many who weren’t.They weren’t content with any chanting but went all out with physical attacks on the Tel Aviv fans, they didn’t even care if anyone was chanting as they went after anyone at all they thought were fans.
Probably everything has been said on this subject for now.

Maybe the moral is that if you want to maintain the moral high ground, it's not a good idea to stoop to the lowest level and you've no right to claim you're a victim.

We can't know how far attacks would have happened that night had the Maccobi fans not acted as they did.

Maccobi fans came with plans to chant and some to attack and the world is now aware of that.

Its not just what happened after the match, its the now world wide news what they Maccobi fans said and did and has possibly inflamed matters in a manner that has not played out well for Jewish people in terms of increased incidents of anti-semitism.

And of course the Arab teams do similar I expect.
The Pro Palestinians who planned attacks in Amsterdam possibly weren’t even football fans or it was a mix of some who were and many who weren’t.They weren’t content with any chanting but went all out with physical attacks on the Tel Aviv fans, they didn’t even care if anyone was chanting as they went after anyone at all they thought were fans.
Probably everything has been said on this subject for now.

madalene

In addition I think six million Jews murdered in WW2 has given them the impetus to say never again and they mean it.

It wasn't Arabs who were responsible for the Holocaust, but they're the targets of the vile racism.

Oreo

growstuff

Anniebach

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

I suspect most people know that Anniebach, but it still doesn't give anybody an excuse to go round chanting about f*cking their 'enemies', imploring their army to kill them or goading people about having killed their children.

It doesn’t but football fans chant about their enemies as you know.They are also still shocked by the incursion and murders of over 1,000 of sleeping families and young people at a music festival and 200 hostages taken with many of them murdered too by the government hamas and their supporters.
In an ideal world nobody would do anything to anyone but Jews won’t take anything done to them now.You need to understand that.

Maccabi Tel Aviv ultras were chanting this kind of muck before the Hamas attack. At one match against a Greek (I think) team, they chanted about raping Arab women and drinking their blood when they're dead. There is absolutely no excuse for that. They even taunt their own non-Jewish players. It's unadulterated racism. The Israeli FA should be taking action against them.

In addition I think six million Jews murdered in WW2 has given them the impetus to say never again and they mean it.

Good post Oreo.

growstuff

Anniebach

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

I suspect most people know that Anniebach, but it still doesn't give anybody an excuse to go round chanting about f*cking their 'enemies', imploring their army to kill them or goading people about having killed their children.

It doesn’t but football fans chant about their enemies as you know.They are also still shocked by the incursion and murders of over 1,000 of sleeping families and young people at a music festival and 200 hostages taken with many of them murdered too by the government hamas and their supporters.
In an ideal world nobody would do anything to anyone but Jews won’t take anything done to them now.You need to understand that.

growstuff Fri 15-Nov-24 16:02:59
escaped
Actually many players' religious affiliations are not publicly disclosed. Is it important?
Why are we discussing whether individual team players, most of whom we have never heard of, are Muslim, Druze or whatever?
Because somebody called Maccabi Tel Aviv a Jewish team. In case people need reminding, Israel and Jewishness are not the same thing. Maybe if more people took that into account, discussions about antisemitism would be more hones

Anniebach

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

I suspect most people know that Anniebach, but it still doesn't give anybody an excuse to go round chanting about f*cking their 'enemies', imploring their army to kill them or goading people about having killed their children.

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

Over 73% living in Israel are Jews 😃Just for further clarification.

I don't think antisemitism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, ageism, in fact all the isms and phobias, will ever be eradicated. They seem to be a part of the bafflingly illogical human reasoning process. Animals don't tend to develop "isms", so I can only surmise that it has something to do with the ability to think in abstract terms, rather than reacting to our immediate circumstances. Is there an answer? I wish someone would come up with one, but I'm not holding my breath (especially in this age of "cancellation").

Wyllow3

Anniebach

Nothing about antisemitism in that alleged Liverpool chant

But a lot about sentiments towards Muslims.

I can't speak for her but think the point that Growstuff was trying to make is that sadly we live in a world where racism can and is expressed by football supporters, which is part of the discussion on this thread.

I actually get dragged along to football matches about once a month and my TV, which I hardly ever watch, seems to be permanently tuned into football matches.

Racism is rife amongst certain football fans, particularly in countries other than the UK (although it's not absent even in the UK and the FA's efforts).

I posted the Salah chant because I'm a huge Salah fan. Not only is he a fantastic footballer, but he's an all-round 'good guy', who is very public about his religious beliefs. He kisses the ground whenever he scores a goal (which is often) and his wife is usually seen at matches wearing a headscarf. More than that, there have been academic studies showing that Salah has been responsible for a drop in anti-Muslim hate incidents amongst Liverpool fans. He's become a cult hero. Ironically, a previous Liverpool player who also became a cult hero was Ronnie Rosenthal, who is an Israeli Jew.

The point I'm trying to make is that being a football doesn't imply being racist, but there is a handful of teams which are known for a group of their fans being racist, which sometimes (as in the case of Maccabi Tel Aviv) becomes political.

I still object very strongly to the violence in Amsterdam being framed as 'antisemitic attacks' without the full context being reported.

escaped

Actually many players' religious affiliations are not publicly disclosed. Is it important?
Why are we discussing whether individual team players, most of whom we have never heard of, are Muslim, Druze or whatever?

Because somebody called Maccabi Tel Aviv a Jewish team. In case people need reminding, Israel and Jewishness are not the same thing. Maybe if more people took that into account, discussions about antisemitism would be more honest.