Should Justin Welby resign?

A independent review found that it wasn't just a case of not checking up, or not taking things further.

It was a cover up.

Mollygo

A bit dramalama 00opsidia

I'd rather be attacked than be a whitewashed wall.
Who is a whitewashed wall?
Who’s attacking you?
What are you doing about the wrongs that exist in this country to do with religions?

What am I doing? Not that I am required to justify myself to you...but I have nothing to hide unlike many.

Writing about the truth. Comforting abuse victims. Working behind the scenes to make things better.

And you, what are you doing to make things better?

The truth continues to leak from under the rug where it has been pushed. The pressure is growing to those who have much to lose and everything to gain at the same time.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/13/justin-welby-archbishop-resignation-church-of-england

Perhaps Shabana Mahmood needs to make this a priority and make sure it is brought to the top of the list.

foxie48

For the record, The 2023/24 Criminal Justice Bill, which contained the proposals for a mandatory reporting duty in England, did not complete its passage through Parliament and so will not become an Act because the then PM (Sunak) called an election. This means that there is currently no legal requirement for those working with children to report suspected abuse to the police. The link below provides everything that is contained in the bill and what it was in response to.
learning.nspcc.org.uk/news/2024/may/mandatory-reporting-child-sexual-abuse

Thank you for drawing our attention to this.

Allira

00opsidia

RosiesMaw2

I am a bt stunned that Justin Welby is married as he always looks so dour and dead in the eyes. I had assumed him a gay man as he seems so pro gay
Is this not a smidgen homophobic?

Why don't you get off your high horse and ask yourself why you're defending someone who defended abusers?

Think what you want.

For Goodness sake.

I have not read one post on here which is defending Justin Welby.

However, posters are angry at what he failed to do, they are not not making personal comments about his appearance or possibly homophobic comments about his personal life.

It seems that it is you who is on a high horse for whatever reason and we are trying to steer the discussion back to the events that led up to this and his subsequent resignation.

We are also pondering how this make focus the minds of everyone to make the reporting process more robust and open in the future.

Strongly agree.

The homophobia was well out of order. Welby's careful negotiations within the church to help gay people be part of its life within limits agreed after many years followed other Christian churches.

As said, no-one has defended him here.

There were other significant figures in the lack of action, I think an enquiry as to how it could have happened is appropriate.

foxie48 that’s breathtaking. The new government should act fast on this.

00opsidia a tad over-dramatic

Posters are not attacking you, they questioned the unpleasant personal and possibly homophobic remarks you made. No-one is defending the actions of Justin Welby or others who failed to act to stop this abuser.

In 2013 The Bishop of Winchester, the Right Reverend Tim Dakin, said: "Safeguarding must always be of paramount concern and is a vital part of the Church's mission as he highlighted an abuse victim who had been let down by the church.

Bishop Tim said "At the heart of this matter is safeguarding the vulnerable who have frequently been let down by the church."

Bishop Tim was later scapegoated and made to leave in May 2021 (in a vote of no confidence) as a result of his complaint about the way abuse victims were treated. It was said to be to save money.

I applaud Bishop Tim and others for speaking the truth and holding Christian values, but condemn those who continued to hush up the truth. It is not right for people who speak the truth to be got rid of, while others remain in power who know and gloss over the truth.

The truth sets us free, we know what the opposite will do and who in their right mind wants opacity?

For the record, The 2023/24 Criminal Justice Bill, which contained the proposals for a mandatory reporting duty in England, did not complete its passage through Parliament and so will not become an Act because the then PM (Sunak) called an election. This means that there is currently no legal requirement for those working with children to report suspected abuse to the police. The link below provides everything that is contained in the bill and what it was in response to.
learning.nspcc.org.uk/news/2024/may/mandatory-reporting-child-sexual-abuse

A bit dramalama 00opsidia

I'd rather be attacked than be a whitewashed wall.
Who is a whitewashed wall?
Who’s attacking you?
What are you doing about the wrongs that exist in this country to do with religions?

00oopsia you are being a touch dramatic here. How do you suggest that the whole country moves forward on this? What additional measures are needed etc? No one is saying this is okay. It must not happen again. How do we achieve a safer country?/world?

The Bishop of Lincoln, Rt Rev Stephen Conway, has apologised for his failure to act on abuse allegations against the late barrister John Smyth, following recent calls for his resignation.

At least someone is doing the right thing in confessing. Now we just need the rest of them to confess and repent.

Attack me for speaking the truth if you want, but protecting those who brushed abuse under the carpet says a lot about those who do. We can't fight every battle, but if we all did break away from the apathy that has engulfed this country and speak out we could make a big difference.

What is the state of this country that people who hide the truth are worshipped and people who speak the truth are rare (and attacked) . I'd rather be attacked than be a whitewashed wall.

00oopsia I have just read a very poignant statement from my vicar. It is right that Welby has resigned and the Makin report makes very difficult reading. It happened. Our local church has robust safeguarding for the young and vulnerable.
I agree that Smyth should have been stopped from moving to Africa and that there was the worst cover up involving multiple institutions. This must not happen again. When will legislation catch up with the gap between reporting abuse and actioning it? Churches are not in charge of due process, the government is.

00opsidia

RosiesMaw2

I am a bt stunned that Justin Welby is married as he always looks so dour and dead in the eyes. I had assumed him a gay man as he seems so pro gay
Is this not a smidgen homophobic?

Why don't you get off your high horse and ask yourself why you're defending someone who defended abusers?

Think what you want.

For Goodness sake.

I have not read one post on here which is defending Justin Welby.

However, posters are angry at what he failed to do, they are not not making personal comments about his appearance or possibly homophobic comments about his personal life.

It seems that it is you who is on a high horse for whatever reason and we are trying to steer the discussion back to the events that led up to this and his subsequent resignation.

We are also pondering how this make focus the minds of everyone to make the reporting process more robust and open in the future.

ronib

00opsidia you seem fixated on Welby as the person with most responsibility for safeguarding when I prefer to look around at all aspects. For example, does legislation offer enough protection? Do we need an abuse hotline, if we don’t have one- I think we do?
I know use of the Starmer name is unpopular on this board but what is the government going to do to improve the reporting of abuse and how to action it? What is government doing as abuse is not confined to the Church of England?

JW was the Arch Bishop of Canterbury! Does it get any higher or more responsible? The buck stops there. In the church, which is responsible for it's own safeguarding. Other Bishops need to fess up. In fact every single one who was responsible for advising Smyth to go to Africa, where he became an even more prolific abuser.

I don't know where Starmer stands in faith matters, he is a politician and not responsible for upholding righteousness in the church of England. I am not Pro Starmer.

JW is the only name we know. We don't know who the others are yet, but it will be known. They are the blind leading the blind and they do not represent who they claim to represent. Who do you want this to be about? It should be about ALL the Bishops who ok'ed Smyth to go to Africa instead of facing the law.

I cannot understand anyone who protects a person who abuses or thinks it's ok if they do it in Africa- that is not referring just to JW but to every single Bishop or Priest in this land who covered up abuse and facilited abuse. Anyone who wants to shush this has probably never been abused or known someone who has been abused (and wanting to shush it up is being complicit in all the others who haven't repented and confessed yet)

Oreo

The buck stops at the top.

Yes it does, but I hope all those who knew and did or said nothing are feeling guilty.
I know it’s really hard
to press for something to be done when it’s a popular, famous or more important person.
The AoC was better placed to push the matter forward, so he must take responsibility for that.
But so many people in the know who equally did nothing is a shameful reflection not just on the church, but on the police and anyone else those boys/young men talked to about what happened.

It’s easy to criticise, less easy to do something. e.g. we know the abuse of women which is happening under a certain regime, but how many of us aren’t doing anything about it?

00opsidia you seem fixated on Welby as the person with most responsibility for safeguarding when I prefer to look around at all aspects. For example, does legislation offer enough protection? Do we need an abuse hotline, if we don’t have one- I think we do?
I know use of the Starmer name is unpopular on this board but what is the government going to do to improve the reporting of abuse and how to action it? What is government doing as abuse is not confined to the Church of England?

The buck stops at the top.

“Let he that is without sin cast the first stone” said Jesus, in a reference to those accusing a woman caught in the act of adultery, where stoning to death was the punishment.
We are all sinners, without exception. Some bear more responsibility in life because of their position, however.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Why don't you get off your high horse and ask yourself why you're defending someone who defended abusers
Might I respectfully suggest you read what I wrote earlier on in the thread, not defending Welby as you seem to think ?
Reading the full thread has its uses but I also believe in “choosing my battles” and not damning a person because they have a “dour” countenance, “dead eyes” or (mistakenly as it turns out) somebody thinks they might be gay.

fancythat

It feels like we are in a new era of , "reporting to police" or "reporting to authorities" is not enough any more.

We an no longer "trust" them to follow through.

It then comes back on the person who reported in the first place, for not pursuing further.

Or am I wrong?

No you are not wrong. The reporting system is simply not fit for purpose. I don’t know what anyone knew before 2013 but after that date there were people who were trying to do the right thing. It is wrong to call it a cover up because that suggests an active hostility towards the truth being exposed which is not the case (at least after 2013). I’m not sorry Welby has gone but I despair of the baying for blood of decent men as a substitute for punishment of the perpetrators when they have escaped justice through dying. It is becoming a common theme.

00opsidia

OldFrill

I may have had some respect for Welby had he fallen on his sword +metaphorically), however he released a statement saying he would not resign and was then (within hours) forced to U turn. I have no respect and no sympathy. There is MSM discussion that he may not get the usual retirement peerage 'may not get'! Unbelievable to think he could be a sitting peer in 2026.

Quite, but he will be ok as he is pension age and Im sure he has a few pensions.

More will come out. It will be a shock to some and not others.

He inherited £1.5million (after tax) earlier this year. This is interesting reading
www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/archbishop-made-multi-millionaire-after-surprise-inheritance-299694/

OldFrill

I may have had some respect for Welby had he fallen on his sword +metaphorically), however he released a statement saying he would not resign and was then (within hours) forced to U turn. I have no respect and no sympathy. There is MSM discussion that he may not get the usual retirement peerage 'may not get'! Unbelievable to think he could be a sitting peer in 2026.

Quite, but he will be ok as he is pension age and Im sure he has a few pensions.

More will come out. It will be a shock to some and not others.

RosiesMaw2

^I am a bt stunned that Justin Welby is married as he always looks so dour and dead in the eyes. I had assumed him a gay man as he seems so pro gay^
Is this not a smidgen homophobic?

Why don't you get off your high horse and ask yourself why you're defending someone who defended abusers?

Think what you want.