Should Justin Welby resign?

I think one boy was as young as nine, at the time.

madalene

I might be misunderstanding, but didn’t this man abuse young men by beating them? Did he abuse children too?
I’m also unclear as to what his role in the church was?

If you visit the Winchester College website, madelene, you can read about the pupils at the school who became involved in the abuse. Anyone of school age to me, is a "child", even though they might be entering adulthood.

The "she" is Ms. Morland, speaking during Smythe's Court case.

She said the first victim, who was 12 or 13 at the time, was abused by Smythe on trips away, that he masturbated the boy and forced the youngster to masturbate him. He claims Smythe also rubbed his penis up against the boy when they were swimming in a river.

Another man claims Smythe touched his penis while they were in the swimming bath.

The third said he was on a camping trip when he woke to find Smythe touching the boy’s penis. He confronted him and Smythe apologised, but Ms Morland said the priest gave the impression that the boy was the only victim.

I might be misunderstanding, but didn’t this man abuse young men by beating them? Did he abuse children too?
I’m also unclear as to what his role in the church was?

I'd expect better behaviour from those who assume such important roles - particularly religious ones.

Not perfection, but certainly not sadistic abuse of children,

00opsidia I am a bit confused by your omission of young men. Smyth was involved with beating young men in the most sadistic manner possible. Not women and not children.

All kinds of abuse are everywhere. In any large group of people there are abusers. Why should the church be any different?

Yes there are true Christians who are kind and good, but among them are also fakes who masquerade as good people, using Christianity as a front for their double life. This happens in every religion and every social group, for sure.

If it is true that 100 Bishops knew, then ALL of them should be resigning to let the people below them have a promotion. It's not just JW who should fall on their sword. Let there be a purging of these people who turn a blind eye to abuse of women and children.

I wasn’t going to post again on this thread and I wasn’t trying to derail it … however there does seem to be a recurring theme of powerful people able to bury bad news. I am truly shocked that files have gone missing in the Savile case for example. In the Smyth case, powerful people did a great job of keeping quiet - after all, it’s 2024 and this kicked off in 2013 but had been going on for decades previously. I read that there have been calls for further resignations too. The Bishop of Newcastle has been very clear and strong throughout so there’s some hope that the Church of England will follow a better path.

Yes,that's how I understand it,
He simply didn't follow it up knowing full well that he needed to, in order to protect children from this monster.

My understanding is that he was told that it had been handed over to the police but he made no attempt to check that it had or check it's progress. Putting this in context, he had been told of the serious nature of offences and he had a personal connection with Smythe, having been a dormitory warden at one of the summer camps. "Lack of curiosity" doesn't resonate with me he would have been very aware that the church had a real issue with abuse and a lack of effective safeguarding practice. I can't help but think he just hoped it would just go away.

Why should someone who knew about child abuse and do nothing about it be given the option to resign. A stronger and appropriate message for the victims of the abuse would most certainly be that he and any others who knew of the ongoing abuse should be immediately fired and not let time pass for them to resign ( if they choose!!) I hope more people who have colluded in keeping this heinous behaviour hidden are got rid of. It really goes beyond understandable that a 'place of God' should behave in this way and bring forward the argument that child abuse is everywhere so it is also in the church!

In some Christian circles (not C of E that I know of) if a man deviates from the norm and commits adultery in some way, the wife is blamed for not being enough. Even if the man is unfaithful or a bully, it's all your fault as a woman. You deserve it, because YOU married him. Now you are responsible for him being happy and doing the right thing. If only you were "enough" for him, he would be a faithful man and not an abuser... (SIGH)

This kind of misogyny years ago could stop women asking for help where there was none. If she had, it would probably have been her, not him who was blamed (and then disciplined) What woud her options be in that instance, married to an abuser? She would either have to put up and shut up, live her life being faithful to her vows or she would have to walk away completely to start a new life- because there is no reasoning with unreasonable people.

OldFrill

His son is mentioned in the report. His mother would write his misdemeanors in a book and his father beat him.

Oh no. So its quite possible that she knew he was disciplining the boys and accepted it as a necessary punishment.

She probably didn't know the half of it, so we will never know if she was abused as well, or if his smarm and charm was good enough that she thought the sun shone out of his backside. Some charismatic men are good at hiding their abuse this way.

Years ago people put up and shut up about marital abuse. Marital rape only became illegal in 1991. Many who were already going through this kept quiet. Others who sought help were bullied into staying with the man, being told it's their duty because they married him.

Some Christian women life a life being abused by misogynistic men and put up with abuse out of shame. They are victim blamed and victim shamed because of Eve's fall. Some Christian women live a blessed life. It all depends if they are married to a man with a true faith or someone who uses Christianity as a front for their double life.

A warning to presumably other people too.
"Just" telling the police is not enough.

Ronib why not start a new thread about Starmer and his alleged failure to prosecute Saville? I'll happily post links on that but this thread is about Justin Welby and I don't want to derail it.

ronib

But Welby did not cover up. He handed the report over to the police. Welby’s crime was to not hold the police accountable and he failed to chase for a progress report. Let’s see how the police explain this. There needs to be an enquiry surely?

This is the part I was not sure about.

So he knew there was a problem. Or many.
Told the police.

Yes, he should have done so much more.

This is for ronib
Smyth died in 2018, just at the point the CPS were giving police advice to bring him back from Africa to face charges.

I appreciate your obsession with finding fault with the CPS (and Starmer) but one problem here is the culture within the powerful organisation of the CofE, as with Catholic and other faiths, not to bring shame on its work. The other is societies continued resistance to accepting the extent of sexual abuse of children in all societies

I have mentioned this before, but a barrister relative of mine was recently prosecuting a case in which the elderly clergyman was accused of historic child abuse. His plea was not guilty.
He was found guilty.
What the jury did not know was that he had served two prison sentences already for previous offences.
The offenders wife and daughters attended the trial, and protested his innocence throughout.

Goodness, shock horror, yet ANOTHER scandal of Church leaders hiding perverts away from the forces of law and order. It's been happening for decades, round the world, and the Catholic branch of Christianity is just as bad.

Is anyone really shocked anymore?

His son is mentioned in the report. His mother would write his misdemeanors in a book and his father beat him.

Knowing what abusers are like, it's likely one extreme or the other. I do wonder if his wife is still alive. A lot of women put up with a lot in the name of marriage and I'm sure it's a lot more than they bargained for.

It's worse when everyone else sees the person as some heroic being, harder to feel like you would be believed, I expect.

It is vile.

That's all very feasible, isn't it?
At least its finally being addressed, even though its such a widespread occurance amongst a lot of people in authority.

It makes me sick to my stomach.

No it wouldn't be the first thing a wife would think, but I have known people who have been in similar positions and they were the last to know.

I wonder what she thought they were doing in the shed. Perhaps he told her they were working on a project (believeable) or maybe she KNEW of his penchant for Discipline. Either he was absolutely charming and such a gent that she'd never have believed it in a million years or he was an absolute brute and she and the kids may have also been victims. At this point I don't think anything can be assumed.

It wouldn't be the first thing to come to mind when thinking about your husband, surely??